Thursday, 15 December 2011

Lets have a conversation. Your Q's, Our answers.

Lets Talk...

There has been a great amount of anger, frustration, confusion, misunderstanding, fighting and tension among our users with regards to the status and future of the Phoenix and Firestorm Viewers. I think it's time we give you a venue to constructively vent, have your questions/concerns answered and allow me to explain our position.

I have organized a Q&A event that will be held in the Rockcliffe Universities 4 region auditorium. It will be hosted by Nigma Sterling of Rockcliffe Uni. The format will be similar to our Office Hours with a host taking questions and me answering them. The event will be video recorded and made available for those who cannot attend. We will take questions both from the audience and from the comments section of THIS blog post. So if you will not be able to attend but have questions, concerns or criticism you want answered please write them down as a comment on this blog post. But do note, I will not answer things like "You suck!", "Your viewer sucks!", "I don't like it". Questions, concerns and Constructive criticism only. That means you need to provide actual reasons for your complaints so that I can address those reasons.

This is your chance to be heard, please try to be there if you can.

The Q&A will be held this Saturday 1PM Second Life time at the Rockliffe university regions with the following landmarks. 
Note: Due to the amount of people we expect to arrive, please arrive early and use the following landmarks based on the first letter of your first name.

A - I:
J - R:
S - Z:


Jessica Lyon
Project Manager
The Phoenix Viewer Project, Inc


  1. Will this be any more or less effective than the blog arguments that have gone on these last couple of weeks? B/C there is no real point to this if you and your teammates are just going to do the same round of insults, dismissals and elitism you have been engaging in.

  2. If it's not in text, I can't participate. Ergo, I can't attend.

  3. I wont be able to attend, but I wanted to offer my concern, which I'm sure many have. On the newest Phoenix release with ultra settings (minus shadows) at my home, I can get over 40 FPS. Sometimes pushing 60 FPS. On Firestorm, I was lucky to hit 25 with settings that were less than ultra and still no shadows. So my question to you would be are there any plans to address the performance of future viewers so they are closer to what is being achieved in Phoenix? I understand the additions of things like shadowing effects can be a performance killer, but I'm talking about doing an apples to apples comparison of the settings.

    And as a second question, are there any plans to make a new viewer with an interface more like Phoenix? After looking at Firestorm and trying to make it look more like Phoenix, it still just felt clunky and confusing. Not to mention the lack of skinning options (I love the metalic purple on Phoenix).

  4. A friend went into the support group to find out the reason why what appeared to be debug settings appearing on her screen. The "support" provided- by three different Mod/staff, simultaneously- ranged from being sent to non-applicable wiki pages, to a scorched earth reset of all settings back to default. NO ONE suggested checking specific menu settings to resolve the issue, but chose instead to frustrate this user by sending her to a wiki page that did not address the issue or needlessly erase hours of tweaking by doing a global reset back to default. Is the support staff deliberately trying to frustrate users into using a different viewer altogether, or do they simply not care enough to actually find answers to issues? She wanted to find out why the problem was happening in order to prevent it from happening again, not simply make it go away until next time she hit the wrong key combo. The support staff, based on this and other situations I have personally observed, apparently just want to make the customer go away and dispenses only the most general "fixes", such as resetting back to default or sending the customer to dig thru a wiki page in the unlikely event the answer is there.
    Yes, there are more people in the support group needing answers than there are staffers to address them, and it takes time to find those answers, sometimes. But refusing to find answers to unique issues- other than copy/pasting URLs to wiki pages only makes that situation worse, and more frustrating, to users when they come back the third, fourth or fifth time to ask the same questions yet again, hoping against hope that another user might have the answer, because the staff obviously do not- and do not seem to care enough to find it.

  5. My complaints and a question:

    First off, I'm on Ubuntu and in all the two years I'm in SL, only one viewer release worked mostly flawless (besides voice not working), and which was an Emerald release. All other viewers had serious and not so serious bugs. So please, don't take my complaints too serious ... I'm not spoiled by awesome viewers :D

    1st complaint: In none of the Phoenix releases I got music and/or video to play. Not to speak of voice. (Besides that it's almost a good viewer.)

    2nd complaint: I was reading about the bugs that have been fixed in the latest FS release. Actually, all the bugs I suffered in the beta release are still there, and the rest got even worse. I cant really use FS at its current state.

    3rd complaint: We had to wait quite a long time for the release of FS, and now it's such a messy piece of software. Even the beta was better, and not even the new GUI of LL's viewer 3.2.x made it in the new FS.

    Question: Do you think you will have a Linux developer join your team? Especially one for the popular Ubuntu?

    Btw: In 2010, I only had three crashes with Emerald, but since then, with Phoenix, I had countless crashes!

  6. N.v.m the You suck comments, you guys are great and doing what ever you can. And something realy special.... you guys listen to what your users say, which is more then I can say for some other Viewer teams. Keep up the good work, all of you! CHEERS!

  7. I have used Emerald, then Phoenix, then Firestorm Beta in Phoenix configuration and now Firestorm.
    Which is my favourite by far?
    Firestorm. So thank you team - for me it is a great job.
    NOW - whether you love or loath Firestorm - you are not a customer and these are not employees. They are just fellow users of SL who want to make a viewer and help others.
    So please less of the emotive language.

  8. I've watched the debate rage on these pages, it seems forever, but let's not turn these comments into another flame-fest. Remember guys, these people provide a damn good service for nothing; they keep the (silent) majority happy with a viewer that works, and for most, works well. Yes, I struggled with Firestorm, yes I wavered back to Phoenix, but I stuck with it and my vote goes to Firestorm. I never paid a penny for it, contributed in any way to the project and yet I think what Firestorm delivers is pretty top notch.

    Now, let's stick to Jessica's brief - constructive, criticism, questions and concerns. Save your bugs and personal glitches for the Jira; save your slanging matches for the playground and let's work together with the Team to make some ground here.

    I do have a question - will there be any plans to allow creating/modifying outfits V1 style? I know a number of clothing creators who would switch to Firestorm but struggle with the messy V2 method, so are hanging on to Phoenix. Is this a practical change that could be made, or is V2 style the only real option?

    Keep up the good work guys. You rock!

  9. I haven't noticed anyone badmouthing phoenix/firestorm lately... I think this whole "town hall" drama is the result of a vociferous minority.

    Firestorm is a great viewer with great features, FAR beyond what the stock viewer from LL is capable of (which is created by paid employees).

    People should be thankful that other people have done the work for them, for FREE, to create a viewer that works so well, AND they make a greater effort than I have seen from anyone, including Linden Lab, to support it.

    When people talk about "this generation" being "so entitled," I usually don't understand, but something like this definitely helps make the sentiment crystal clear. A small group of people have volunteered to make something better for you (with great success), yet everyone seems to get pissy when they /feel/ it's slower, or they /feel/ they aren't getting support, etc. etc.

    The second you download the viewer, you've just been given hours and hours of effort all for your benefit, and you respond by moaning and groaning about how you haven't been given enough. Stop complaining. You can contribute to the project or go back to LL's viewer, but stop complaining.

    .......aaaand lastly..... I'll be on a plane to Chicago at the time of the meeting, so RESCHEDULE IT. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU GUYS WOULD MESS THIS UP. WHAT ABOUT ME!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

  10. With all due respect to serenhaven & iynque, I have been watching the flame battles here with a measure of disgust. Yes, some of the comments from users could stand to be less off-putting, but I see that mostly as the natural response to what looks like an over-hostile attitude coming from the programmers. I realize they love Viewer 2/3 & they cannot see why anyone would ever dare question the alleged superiority of those highly unstable Viewers, & they have put so much work into Firestorm that they cannot allow themselves to see the writing on the wall. But it is that very overprotective mindset of their favored baby that is getting them so much grief in the first place.

    It is like the rhetorical battles between the Mac users & the PC users in my office. Mac is the overpriced elitist computer whose users think they are the future & everybody had better get W/ the program B/C the competition is going to go away any day now. The PC users feel slighted by the arrogance of the Mac users & they do not like being talked down too.

    Yes the programmers provide Phoenix/Firestorm for free. That does not mean they get to talk down too the people that use their Viewers. Yes, there are obvious flaws in the Viewer 2/3 codebase that make it unworkable on more machines. That does not mean that Viewer 1 is any better, just less buggy, less crashtastic then Viewer 2/3. And it does not mean that they always have to complain in such a way that it makes it look like they are trashing the people & not the specific problems in the Viewer. Can everybody step back and think before typing, even for a little while?

    I would not go so far as to say that people should be grateful for all the hard work put into a project like this, when they constantly berate the people that user their Viewers. If this was a real business W/ paying customers, it would of shut down years ago B/C/ noone would ever want too shop for their wares. It is stupid too think you can behave like snobs W/ huge chips on your shoulders, turn around & demand gratitude & then wonder why all the anger. So now you have to waste alot of people's time to hold a inworld Q&A that prolly will not solve anything only make relations W/ users worse. All B/C you do NOT listen to your loyal base, all B/C you remain so closedmindedly stubborn.

    As for the reactions too all this, why not understand that it is pointless to attack the programmers when all you have to do is to go use another Viewer that works well. It is a GAME, people! And your bitching B/C some players wanted to play it thru a Viewer you do not like & they do, & you do not want to move on. If the programmers here want to crash & burn W/ a shoddy Viewer that is their right & their suckage to deal W/. Just let them go, move onto greener pastures already.

  11. I had concerns on png and tga textures. when I upload them its not transparent in the preview. Will that be fixed? I only see grey behind the textures I upload.

    MistressViper Voom

  12. This comment has been removed by the author.

  13. I wondered if the Preview of textures as in png or tga will show transparent again? The preview shows a grey background.

    MistressViper Voom

  14. I've been a big fan of the the development of Firestorm and been closely watching it for nearly a year, seeing it progress. I have been using Firestorm as my main viewer since the first beta. I did skip the mesh beta due to the issues it had and stuck with beta 2. Now with the full release of Firestorm though, the frame rates it gets are very bad. I have a nice computer, an AMD Phenom II X6 3.3Gz, 16 gb of RAM, and a Nvidia GTX 560 Ti Superclocked with 1Gb, and use the 64 bit version of Windows 7. With the same graphics and graphical hardware settings I am getting a lousy 18-20 fps with the Firestorm full release, over 50 fps with Firestorm beta 2, and 67-68 fps with Phoenix 1600. Phoenix 1600 also renders mesh so the issue is not completely due to mesh rendering then. My question is this, are the terrible frame rates for the newest versions of Firestorm here to stay or is there a chance that this will be fixed in time? If so how far into the future is it likely to take before we start to see reasonable frame rates with Firestorm with mesh? I actually prefer the user interface that Firestorm has, as during it's beta phase I was using it for months, but till the frame rates are improved I am going to start using Phoenix again, it can view mesh and it gets wonderful frame rates, even if it's UI is a bit of a step backwards for me now after having used Firestorm for awhile.

  15. Ok, For those of us that have been in Sl for more than 6 years. We know a step back and a thing about viewers. Some of us are not trying to be hateful, we are trying to explain why we dont like Firestorm as it is...Trust me, some of us complain to LL too...Its not personal, just some of us see SL in trouble with the current viewers and it is so hard for noobies to use them...I have had hundreds of complaints and I usually tell them to use Phoenix...Most seem to love that viewer...Now ask yourselves why is that?

  16. You know, given the amount of abuse and anger people spew at TPV devs it's a wonder anyone in their right mind puts up with the nonsense to make one.

  17. I'm going to waste my time once again explaining something that people just won't ever get through their heads.

    Please, if you are one of those who think the Firestorm developers give you a viewer based on V2/3 UI because they like it better, this post is for you.

    Pay close attention, here is the thing you need to understand:

    The Firestorm team does not, and never has written their own SL Viewer.

    What they do is take LL's viewer code, as released to the public, and MODIFY it to make it better, to add features, and to fix problems.

    OK, have you got that firmly in your mind?

    The reason Firestorm is based on V2/3 code is because THAT'S WHAT LL GIVES THEM TO START FROM. The Firestorm team has no other viable option.

    LL is not putting out any more V1 code. They aren't working on it, they aren't fixing it, they will sometime soon stop supporting it, and nobody but LL has any choice about that.

    The amazing Firestorm team and a bunch of other folks take this dog turd of a code base and work their tushies off to make it into something usable, for you, for free.

    All of the rants about not leaving the V1 codebase are misplaced. Those should be directed at LL. LL is who left it behind.

    As for questions for the team, I don't have any, because I can read the *&^#$% JIRA, which is public and linked right there on the project home page. I can also read the wiki, also linked. And when I have a problem I can't figure out from those resources, I can talk to a support team member, for free, and get personal attention and assistance.

    Now, go ahead and ignore me and rant to the wrong people about the wrong things, so they can feel like crap because morons are yelling at them for things somebody else did wrong.


    (By the way, I hope there are some good questions and answers that come out of this. And thank you, team.)

  18. First: The lack of fps, as so many complain on now, is a direct result of the introduction of a polygon mesh rendering engine, V1 or V2 code do not matter there. Mesh rendering capability sucks, it´s that easy. The same ones who complain now begged for it like little children feeling depraved of their WOW grunts. Now that they have their endlessly hyped and useless toy they complain on the price.

    Second: I don´t mind about Firestorm. I think LL is back on track with the basical 3.2 UI interface, and this (improved) code base will solve a lot of problems for TPV developers in the midterm run, anyway. It´s only a shame that it took LL ages to show a reaction on user demand, while leaving TPV developers all alone out in the cold.

    Third: I find the latest Phoenix release not really usable (way too buggy), but: I do not need "MESH", not now, and not for the upcoming two years at least. No one really needs it but a few geeks playing with Blender and some peeople who think they can make a decent amount of linden dollars by selling simple textured blender spheres as SL fashion while suffesting that "rigging" is remarkable rocket science and a sales point. So I am more than fine with the previous version of Phoenix, until there will be Firestorm 3.2 including the improved and quite pretty new Linden UI.

    Fourth: Don´t forget that the Emerald/Phoenix team kept SL alive for a while - not we, not LL, but a handful of enthusiastic SL fanatics. By delivering a usable viewer software. Without this viewers Sl would be on the verge of non-existance. So, even if there are bugs and whatever problems, alas. I find it not fair to bash Jessica and her mates for their attempt to fix the mistakes made by people who get a monthly salary for avoiding mistakes and fail.

  19. The past few posts are some of the most reasoned ones I’ve seen in a while (or maybe I just agree with them more).

    Stacie Meier said that those of us who have been here a while know a thing or two about viewers and recognize backward steps when we see them. She's right, and most of us have learned to tweak viewers over the years to behave like we want them to. I'm sorry, but some things in any V2/3 based viewer just don't render correctly for me no matter how I adjust the settings, and I’ve even tried adjusting the display settings of my video driver to no avail.

    Sassy said what all of us know in our hearts, or at least should – that the Phoenix/Firestorm people have been handed a pile of crap and are being asked to make it smell nice. It's the folks at LL who like to do things for any number of unfathomable reasons with no input from or concern about the people who actually spend time in SL.

    And Vivienne is right in saying that mesh is something reserved for geeks and assorted other computer nerds who would rather spend more time playing with Blinder or 3Ds than actually getting out and about inside SL. I started my 3D life in a place that was nothing but mesh. Imagine my surprise when I came to SL and discovered you could actually create things here in-world without needing any outside programs or a degree in 3D modeling. I feel like mesh is one of those backward steps Stacie was talking about. And Vivienne is right, people thought it was supposed to be the best thing since flush toilets, and now look were we are. As they say, be careful what you wish for. I'm a big believer in the, “If it ain't broke, don't fix it” principle. I just wish LL felt the same way.

  20. I'd like to say that I don't have an issue with firestorm or phoenix. Am I fond of the move to Firestorm nope. But, I'd like to agree it's 10 times better then using linden labs basic user interface which has gotten better but not perfect. Firestorm gives you the option of having a more simple and easy to use interface over linden labs difficult and rugged interface. My question is why hasn't anyone given Jessica and her team A prize or some type of award for their hard dedication to this project? I mean look at the user interface of Firestorm and tell me that isn't awesome work for a development team? I mean wholy crap I think I would shoot myself if I had to work on that code base. It's hard enough just trying to configure the beast to compile. Cudos to the phoenix/firestorm team for their dedication! It's only a matter of time before all these graphics issues are fixed just hang in there guys :)

  21. My only issue with the Firestorm Release is that it seems we are unable to customize the sky settings as much as we used to on non-mesh viewers. For this reason, I have kept the latest non-mesh beta version of Firestorm installed for when I take photographs. I would like to know if the restriction to editing sky settings is an issue with LL or if it's something the team can address. It's really important to some of us to be able to adjust the sun, etc. for good pictures.

  22. I do not and have never had an issue with the existence of Firestorm. I simply am not interested in using it as it is, because it lacks the UI I want and features I need. I am only upset and voicing that upset because the development team is attacking Phoenix and its users. While Henri Beauchamp and others work to bring the latest features to the v1 codebase, the Phoenix team chooses to abandon its best viewer instead of fighting tooth and nail to save what so many love. If all of the devs or even some focused on Phoenix, they COULD make it both technologically current and what users want, instead of trying to put lipstick on the v3 pig.

    I walk around SL and to live music and other busy events and Phoenix is by far the dominant viewer. Firestorm is gaining ground, but mostly from those who are switching from v2/v3, who didn't prefer Phoenix in the first place. Trying to bully people into using Firestorm is just going to create more backlash. Make Firestorm just like Phoenix or Phoenix just like Firestorm and you'll get the user numbers you seek. Don't, and you'll continue to contend with loud but constructive criticism from people like me who want the v1 UI, the true online status in profiles, the better radar, and other features Firestorm lacks.

  23. I actually love the UI of Firestorm. It took a lot of time to get it nice like it is. It is better I feel now then the old fashioned looking V1 UI. I think most people complaining about Firestorm on the grounds of it's UI have not taken the small bit of effort needed to learn how to set up it's UI to how they will like it and are too lazy to spend the small bit of time needed to get used to it.

    But on the other hand I can see some serious issues with stopping support for and development of the V1 viewer, IE: Phoenix. The main reason why this would be the wrong thing to do is that a vast majority of people out there don't have that powerful of computers who are on SL. Firestorm and other V2/3 based viewers at this time require a much more powerful computer then most people have. On top of this, at least at this time, the frame rates for Firestorm and V2/3 based viewers is really bad, even with a powerful computer. Hopefully this frame rate issue will be resolved at some point in the future, but this likely will take a long time.

    If Phoenix is abandoned this would be basically leaving a large portion of the SL population without an up to date viewer to use due to their computers not being the most current state of the art gaming systems. It will take time also for all the memory leaks and rendering issues to be worked out of Firestorm and V2/3 based viewers, so that they have better frame rates, and don't cause the severe high memory issues many are suffering with them.

    The best solution for now would be to continue support and development of both viewers. Also it would be good to release updates to Phoenix in both mesh and non-mesh versions. Even nicer would be if additionally Firestorm was released in both mesh and non-mesh versions. I would love a up to date version of Firestorm without the mesh rendering engine since this in my opionion would be the best viewer option till they work out the issues with the mesh rendering. There is no way at this point that the rendering and high memory use issues can be rushed since this is mostly in the hands of LL to fix many of these things and they are not likely to get this done for a long time.

  24. Hmm regarding environmental for pics. You have to go into "new preset" to access the sun etc controls. It takes up a lot more screen acreage than previous ways but the colour controls give you a lot more flexibility. A case of 2 steps forward, one step back.
    And mesh..well..once creatives get their heads around it, the difference between painted on textures and mesh will be like chalk and cheese. Check out the latest Maitreya dress if you don't believe me.
    To those who complain about geeks using outside programs to create..well..i haven't heard anyone ask for an inworld paint program so they don't have to use PS to import textures.
    Yes, the frame rate of latest Firestorm really sucks and there are buggs galore still, however, after having slaved through trying to do pics using shadows since Kirstens started, i can say these are a walk in the park compared to what I had to deal with over the years to get usable pics with shadows in them.
    So well done Firestorm devs. You people work hard to give us the best you can..for free.
    A user past Kirstens, Emerald, Phoenix and now Firestorm

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  26. I think it would be a good idea to go over what is possible with firestorm, what is coming in the future, and what is not possible. I think some of the frustration with firestorm comes from unrealistic expectations of the viewer people have, some seem to think you guys are trying to make a v2 version of phoenix, when you are really just trying to make V2 better and add in the features of phoenix that you are able to add. So stating the purpose of firestorm and what you hope to accomplish with it would likely be a good idea.

    Also, how do you file a JIRA? And what are JIRA's for? Many seem to say "bugs bugs bugs" but yet never get any more specific than that. While I know how to file a JIRA, many it seems do not. So perhaps what things to file a JIRA on, where to file it, proper methods and such, would be a good topic to talk about at some point.

    When will V1 cease to function? Is there a timeline for that yet? Will the next version of firestorm use the new LL UI in their version 3.2? Will firestorm get an LSL preprocessor?

    I think a discussion on lag would be good too, since people seem to blame only the viewer for lag, when it can have more than one cause and there are ways to lessen it.

    Some people will never be happy, but I appreciate what the devs are doing to give us a better SL experience, whether it be phoenix or firestorm.

  27. Controversy?



    In the 42 years of my FL life (how many SL years is that?) I can probably count on one hand the number of people I have encountered who are as selfless and generous as this team.

    It is remarkable, amazing, and humbling to see how much they do not only to give us a better product, but to give us as much choice as possible.

    People who "grew up" with the pie wheel didn't like the context menu... the Phoenix pie wheel couldn't be ported to Firestorm, so they built a new one from the ground up.

    But then newer users who grew up with the context menu didn't like the pie wheel... so they included both and gave the user the choice.

    At every turn I see this team trying hard not to tell us how to live our lives (as T Linden did with his arrogant launch of SL V2) but instead offering choice. In my pie wheel example, they never said, the pie wheel is better so use it, they never said the context menu is better so use it, they've always tried hard, done extra work, so that they don't dictate but offer choice.

    I hate to have to admit it, but I believe this team to be more selfless than I am probably capable of. They are remarkably interested in the happiness of the users and the health of this world.

    When I grow up I aspire to be more like the Phoenix / Firestorm team.

    Thank you all SO much!

  28. Half of the point with open source is that when you want something changed, you either change it yourself or hire ($$$) someone who can.

    The Firestorm devs have bent over backwards to please the Phoenix die-hards and I can understand why they're grumpy. They get a ton of crap and very little in the way of gratitude.

    First, I would like to say I appreciate the endless amounts of work your team as put into making TWO top-notch viewers for secondlife. I am grateful and I know many other people are as well.

    Personally, your team has made the decision to primarily support Firestorm, I think it's time to cut the cord on Phoenix and do just that. Coolviewer and Singularity can pick up the people wed to a 1.x interface and you can do what you find satisfying...

    ...which is what working in open source should be about to begin with.

    Once again, thanks for giving us so, so much over the past year plus!

  29. At one time I worked in customer service for a major electronics company. While there I came to two conclusions. First, that who ever said, “The customer is always right,” never actually had to deal with any customers. Secondly, there are people who, if you handed them $500 out of the kindness of your heart, would be upset that it wasn't $1,000.

    To misquote someone more famous than I, you can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. And so it seems to be that way here.

  30. My, my, what a monkey business! If I were on the Phoenix/Firestorm devs or the Phoenix/Firestorm support team, I’d have the impression now that quite a lot of people are pissing on me and my voluntary, unpaid work without having in the least understood what it’s all about. I wouldn’t take kindly to that, and I’d flip those people the bird. And I would not burst out crying if said people moved on to another viewer fast.

    But I’m lucky. I’m only a baffled bystander.

    Ignorance and ingratitude are very ugly siblings.

  31. OMG !!! Please note the new update version of Phoenix 1600 : problems and still have problems .... I change version 152 1185 ... with it no problems anymore.

    Attention la nouvelle version update de Phoenix 1600 ... des problèmes et encore des problèmes change de version 152 1185...avec celle-ci pas de problèmes

  32. After reading the comments, I say two things I want to see in a phoenix/Firestrom viewer. I've been using the phoenix since it's start and emerald before that, so I would like to see more visual compatiblity in the interface, but I understand the need to adopt the new 2.x SL code base. LL has repeatly commented in cutting 1.x viewer in the past so it's a matter of time before that happens. BUT the bigest problem I have with all the new mesh viewer is performance, I limited on funds so a new multicore/screaming video box is out of the question (like alot of user right now). So in the long term tighting up code to improve performance and someway to run a 'light' version by deavating parts of the code would be good too.

  33. As a Mac user I have no issues switching are adapting to Firestorm at all. I love Phoenix but I also love Firestorm's additions and changes.

    But My Issue is that I do not get a decent FrameRate on a high end Macbook Pro! The Framerates are so slow on the Lowest graphics possible, So slow to even 9-15 fps!

    This ruins any experience on SL and thus I switched back to Phoenix 1.6 which turned out to be another disappointment with the same frame rate and no OpenGL.

    So I switched back to Phoenix 1.5 and it works like charm, the frame rate is up ranging from 30-60 in the same places, OpenGL is working and it's why this fps boosts this much.

    My recommendation to the team on the behalf of Mac users is to work on the fps and improve our SL experience by having smooth and rich graphics.

    In the end SL is about the graphics quality and speed of interaction other wise its a heavy chat program.

  34. Kareem, I can’t confirm your statement. My FPS on Firestorm are okey, i. e. slightly lower than on Phoenix 1185.

    CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5462 @ 2.80GHz (2800 MHz)
    Memory: 14336 MB
    OS Version: Mac OS X 10.7.2 Darwin 11.2.0 Darwin Kernel Version 11.2.0: Tue Aug 9 20:54:00 PDT 2011; root:xnu-1699.24.8~1/RELEASE_X86_64 x86_64
    Graphics Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
    Graphics Card: ATI Radeon HD 5870 OpenGL Engine

  35. My only remarks.
    I use the new phoenix mesh viewer, All that i knew that tried it had to return back to old 1!
    Most complain about not even being able to login at all, others that rezzing times are to bad!
    The fact is that the ones that tried it, reverted back, others will not even try,m and those are the ones that are in world at least same mount as me, Hardcore users with average time spent in world of more then 4h daily!
    As some said, there are options now, i always recommend Cool viewer to the ones wanting to see the damn meshes, but in the end, Phoenix is really the most easy and with the best features for most of the users!
    And LL is to blame by mesh and its poor implementation!
    Now i tried Niran's viewer and i believe that LL did something good with V3 interface, Niran's made it even better and as soon as the bugs due to mesh (not being able to override Anisotropic filtering and antialising the most notorious for those who have hing end computers and or vga's, the biggest for me).
    Ill keep for now its use, cause i loved to go to Linden realms, and i dont have 2 much crashes!
    But if LL will not admit the problem with overridinfg graphics on mesh viewrs ill revert to old one asap.

  36. I love all the Firestorm features such as radar, built in AO, coordinate-copy and undo for building, etc. Also, I often enjoy the company of others who are wearing an RLV opencollar. However, I find the new Linden Labs Viewer 3 interface a little more efficient. I wish your "V3" interface were a bit more like V3. I wouldn't bring this up if I thought it would generate a lot of work. But, since you are working from the V3 codebase anyway, could you help me understand why you have gone to such lengths to change the V3 user interface? Before you slam me as a noob, I would like to point out that when I hang out at the info points in some of the old-world SIMs, I often see avatars from 2003 and 2004 with the “Viewer2” tag that Firestorm uses to identify Viewer3 users.

  37. I'm now using FS more because I discovered a fix to my rendering problems by digging through the wiki and not bothering the support folks. However I do still use Phoenix for some things because it's easier for me to see the Edit/Build window due to the skin I use in Phoenix (Silver) and I'm still adjusting to the UI in FS.

    A QUESTION for the upcoming meeting.... an annoying detail I’ve heard others speak of as well is the fact that the various windows in FS don't remember their size or location from one log-in to the next. Is there any plan to address this? And, are there any plans for additional skins?

  38. "Raymond Martinek said...
    My, my, what a monkey business! If I were on the Phoenix/Firestorm devs or the Phoenix/Firestorm support team, I’d have the impression now that quite a lot of people are pissing on me and my voluntary, unpaid work without having in the least understood what it’s all about. I wouldn’t take kindly to that, and I’d flip those people the bird. And I would not burst out crying if said people moved on to another viewer fast."

    However, isnt that what Linden did and ignored what we were trying to tell them...Nevertheless, Linden did that and igorned the lot of us and now we have what is going on now...If you are responsible, be it free or paid, you need to listen to the complainers...They might be trying to tell you what is wrong...Ignoring it or making them move on is just silly and doesnt help Pheonix or Firestorm...Just ask Linden about people moving on.

  39. Thank you for adding mesh to Phoenix. I look forward to trying it out. Here are my comments about Firestorm:

    1. The fonts in chat and picks are too small. Can you make them the same size as Phoenix? I just have a general-purpose home/office PC with a 15" monitor, not a giant game-oriented supervideographics thing.

    2. Picks are really not functional. The tiny image and snippet of text are not as easy or fast to review as the tabs, big pictures, and large text of Phoenix. When I click on a pick, it takes too long to load, much longer than clicking on a Phoenix pick's tab.

    thank you.

  40. Sorry, Stacie, I’m much afraid that you didn’t get my point fully. I simply find that there are too many people who want to make the Phoenix/Firestorm team account for things which rest with Linden Lab. This and the insolent tone of many statements I find highly offensive. Jessica Lyon has several times explained things in a clear, matter-of-facts manner -- what it got her was the accusation of talking down to people, elitism, arrogance etc. because some people didn’t want to accept the stated facts. This really won’t do.

    And as to the criticism of Linden Lab: I see some sound improvement there since the current CEO, Rodvik Humble, has been hired. The people in charge at Linden Lab today have to deal with the decisions of their predecessors which are irreversible from an economic standpoint. And I take it that Linden Lab is not literally swimming in money, so they have to cope with financial restraints which doesn’t make running their business easier for them. So what you may expect to happen is that Linden Lab will enforce the use of V3-based viewers in the not very long run because that’s what makes sense from their economic standpoint and is a pressing necessity. This is quite likely the only view they can take if they want their company to survive and to make their investors happy. If I am not much mistaken, they will even allow for a certain number of users who refuse to use V3-based viewers to leave Second Life for good. So the question will be not if other V1-based-TPV devs will keep up with current developments but when Linden Lab will block V1-based viewers at their discretion. When you are in a tight spot, you can’t expect to make everybody happy.

    In short: Second Life users are free to be annoyed all they want, but not free to wear blinkers and take a merely subjective view and talk any nonsense, willfully ignoring the facts.

  41. Sir.

    As a User who is not very techo savvy I would make the following observation.

    I'm sure we've all had that frustrating Alpha problem where objects like trees etc appear through our walls and end up in the living room/ bedrooms. In the old versions of phoenix ther was an easy solution to this which was Advanced-> Rendering-> tick fast Alph's which solved the problem. However I notice on the latest version of Phoenix this option does not appear to exist which means the new version is not viable for me. Is there another way to fix this problem.

  42. I have been trying very hard to learn to use Firestorm, attending the classes and using the viewer for a couple of hours a day. Unfortunately because of vision issues I have it is not really a viable viewer for me in its current state. My biggest issue is the group notifications - the black box with tiny light gray text is causing eyestrain which in turn causes headaches. I have been told that the devs are working on creating a "skin" that will have those notifications show up differently. I am hoping this is so and that it will happen soon, I am just wondering how soon. I am grateful that those notifications can now be in the upper right corner but there are still the notifications for inventory items that are in the lower corner.
    Thank you - Meghan Fenstalker

  43. Take Phoenix and have a look at the Profile of Melyssa Menna. Happy crash!

  44. I won't be able to attend but I would like to say that the format/setup of Firestorm-being as it's like viewer 2 instead of like Phoenix--is a big disappointment. I thought for sure you'd all like to be different from the rest. Is there a reason you went with this setup instead of sticking with the one like Phoenix which is much easier to maneuver and understand? Thanks. - In world- MarissaScott Magic

  45. Oh, one more thing--will you be offering more skins at any time? I have a major preference for one in Phoenix and the dark skins in Firestorm make it difficult for me to use. Thanks again!

  46. I can't use the new viewer. As soon as everything rezzes in I crash. I never had a problem with any version of the beta, nor with any version of Phoenix, nor with the mesh version of the Linden's viewer. Only the new release of the Firestorm viewer is giving me a problem. I even tried removing all viewers and doing a clean install, no luck. It looks like I am going to be stuck with the official SL viewer from now on.

  47. @ Oskar ... I don't get the joke. And I don't crash when looking at that profile. In fact I don't seem to have any issues with Phoenix 1600. Ok, I'm going back to Firestorm and LL's V3.

  48. Frustration here (not anger) - I updated to the latest version of Phoenix. It felt clunky, and so I threw in the towel (thinking) I might as well update to Firestorm. I love how you guys tried really, really hard to made Firestorm look and work like Phoenix. Settling into Firestorm was easy, BUT omg, Firestorm's PFS suffers BIG TIME (and that running on a year old iMac, one of the fastest models made at the time). The very slow and very jerky frame rates of FIRESTORM caused me to go back to Phoenix v1.5.2.1185.

  49. Frustration here (not anger) - I updated to the latest version of Phoenix. It felt clunky, and so I threw in the towel (thinking) I might as well update to Firestorm. I love how you guys tried really, really hard to made Firestorm look and work like Phoenix. Settling into Firestorm was easy, BUT omg, Firestorm's PFS suffers BIG TIME (and that running on a year old iMac, one of the fastest models made at the time). The very slow and very jerky frame rates of FIRESTORM caused me to go back to Phoenix v1.5.2.1185.

  50. /me wonders how the "conversation" is going in SL right now lol

  51. I'm very happy with Phoenix, especially since the second version of the Mesh update doesn't crash - well done!

    All I'm hoping for is that Firestorm can be more like Viewer 1 in the following specific ways:

    1) Same font, small and neat, not wasting space
    2) Same or near as possible same interface - not broken, don't fix.
    3) Same 3D shading, not a flat "web" look
    4) Performance on a par with v1 or better, if possible ;-)

    Extra facilities are always fun but not needed. I like to just plain live in SL rather than boldly go where no av has gone before :-))

  52. Keep in mind that "staying the same as it's always been" means no SL at all fairly quickly. Like any entertainment it has to evolve and get better to draw in and keep new users or it ends up withering and goes away. So embracing change is the path to a long SL experience.

  53. What I do not like is when I download a Viewer is having to make changes to it in order to enjoy SL.
    Want Viewers that run straight out of the box.

  54. All I really want is a FULL featured viewer with everything from V3+ along with the FULL scripting capability from Phoenix.

    Firestorm: Pie menus over drop downs. Text instead of icons. View controls that don't vanish when you click off. Web profiles over hybrids. Skin previews. Much nicer skins needed ;) SCRIPT PREPROCESSOR.

    Scripting (and to a lesser extent ease of use and appearance) currently wins. Just gimme shared media in phoenix.

  55. Looking at all the comments, there is one point that leaps out at me at once.
    The Phoenix/Firestorm devs are trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear..and the amazing thing is, they've nearly succeeded.
    V2 codebase has been around for what...2 years now?
    V1.23/Snowglobe is far older in its origins. Give the devs another 6 months to a year and I'd be surprised if Firestorm isn't better than anything else avaiable in SL.

    Some folks want it easier...a view they can use straight out of the box...being a full-time RLV user, that never was an option for me, so I cannot identify with that view.

    Maybe Niran's or Singularity will suffice for some...maybe Chalice Yao's NaCl?

    For me, thanks I'll stick with the most knowledgable and insightful team in SL, the Phoenix-Firestorm devs. Thankyou folks, some of us really do appreciate your work.

  56. And i returned to old reliable 1.5.21185.
    Now i have better image then with any mesh viewer i tried, and i did a bit on those, and can say for sure that none mesh viewer can really accept overriding via Vga of the graphic settings, and with a latest Nvidea graphics, what a waist to not use this old, bust still the best viewer, no matter what any tries to tell otherwise!
    So its not up to firestorm team to solve, is up to the lab to solve the nonsense of having the latest hardware and have to still use a old code, but that is the one reliable!

  57. LOL. I got tired of skimming the posts but saw enough that I wanted to say "I HAVE NO ISSUES"! Well there is a little bright light flash now and then on the graphics and the DOF isn't flawless on a big screen ( I read that is is bad for most everyone and how to get around that so no biggie).

    So lots of clapping here as I think you guys have done a wonderful job. Sure, things aren't perfect and will likely never be. You can only file down the wheel and make it rounder, you can't start all over. I am doing find in Viewer 3 except for a few documented issues which I can work around. I would still like a "teleport to ground" option leftover from my Emerald days, but FS 3 does SO much and so much better I think people should be clapping rather that b*tching.

    Missed the dra-ma as I was dealing with my own computer melt down. Would rather have had YOUR drama actually, but hey. So lots of gold stars for me.

    Frame rates in 3 (for me) are fine and I get around 60 on the LEA sims most days. Just sayin'.

  58. From what I read in the newest Phoenix update, support will no longer be given to this viewer actively as it's expected to no longer work in the future. As other individuals continue to work with the coding though and make changes to try and keep Phoenix running as long as possible, my main question is whether Phoenix will ever be outfitted with multiple clothing layers? I'd like to keep using Phoenix for as long as possible.. I simply prefer the interfacing to that of Viewer 2/3 or any that mimic the same format, just a personal preference, but this is one feature that I have been hoping and waiting for since I've been a member in SL and would love to know whether there's anyone working on, or will ever work on, bringing that feature to Phoenix? To be honest, if that were added to Phoenix it'd be the only viewer I'd ever want, need, or care to have for as long as it continues working.

  59. What Sassy said (15 Dec 14:27)should be repeated after every 10 comments here, but unfortunately people will still close their ears and not "get" it. This dev team and support team are amazing, patient and awesome. These guys work for nothing. Free. For the love of it. They are just very knowledgeable people; like you and me, only with a lot of very special skills.

    Please don't bash them and don't bash Jessica. They are all doing this because they want to make us users happy, and their job well done is when it works. Give them a chance, they are not there working to make it hard for us! I love you guys!

  60. and FireStorm is working great for me. Yes I crash a bit, but the total experience is incredible, given the time they have been working on it. Things will get fixed, so much has been already.

  61. Firestorm works great for me on Ubuntu Linux 10.4/Phenom II and Windows XP SP3/Celeron platforms. ... and I get better performance using Firestorm than using the LL V2+.

    Thank you for your group's work Jessica. I particularly appreciate your efforts to add creative features while undoing some of the damage done by LL to their own viewer's user interface.

    Clueless Desdemona wasn't even aware that a debate was raging.


  62. So where is the link to the answers that was given, you made a promise to have it recorder to people that wasn't there - still no link on the website... maybe you forgot.. again

  63. Don't know if this has been asked as of yet, Quick scrolled to the bottom. Some like the classic interface, some the V2, some the hybrid on the viewers. Is there a way to let the user choose the type of interface they want to use instead of forcing them to use the hybrid version on Firestorm due to the eventual out-dating of Phoenix?

  64. Why not just make a V2 version of Phoenix, since it works better and is MUCH easier to use then BOTH Viewer 2 and Firestorm????

  65. Mistress, it's not all that easy to import the v1 interface into v2/v3. Phoenix uses the v1 interface. If you listened to Jessica and the QA video they are trying to make firestorm more like v1. But, problem is it's not all that easy. You sit there and try to do it. Tell me how it works out for you. I'll be honest here. Everyone keeps asking the same questions about making firestorm just like phoenix and make it look like phoenix. That's what they are trying to do. They have been doing just that. They are listening. And they are working on making firestorm more useable for everyone. But fact is Phoenix is dying. It's a dying viewer. And they are keeping their promise of keeping it alive for however long they can. I have to applaud Jessica and the rest of the devs for their hard dedicated work! It takes a lot of effort to try and make v3 look like Phoenix. And they have done an amazing job. Firestorm isn't done yet guys. They aren't finished working on it. There will be more tweaks and workabouts to it to make it look more like v1. But the fact of the matter is it will never be like v1. Although they are doing a good job of making it look and act like v1. The fact of the matter is it's not v1 and it will never be v1.

  66. Mistress Nexy, this lowly slave did not mean to sounds like she was bitching, she meensies to simply sounds likies she was making a polite suggestion, she begs Your furgivesness, Mistress Nexy. not being a programmer, this slave girl, fucktoy cannot understand why the maker of phoenix did nots make firestorm look at operate like phoenix from the start, Mistress Nexy.

  67. FYI - my experience with FS so far. FS 3.2.2 did not work very well for me. It was extremely slow rendering, etc. FS 3.2.1 works much better and provides a similar performance as Phoenix had. Here are the system specs I have:
    CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8400 @ 2.26GHz (2261 MHz)
    Memory: 4095 MB
    OS Version: Microsoft Windows Vista 64-bit Service Pack 2 (Build 6002)
    Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
    Graphics Card: GeForce 9800M GS/PCI/SSE2

    Thank you all for your hard work and developing Phoenix and now Firestorm!!!

  68. i was happy to change to the new firestorm viewer but like every new veiwer you can't find things and the profiles ... a man designed and its cold and i hate it, i love my profile and use it to show my work on this veiwer, it reduced to a clinical nothing.... why not make the buttons similar to emeral or phoenix why make us noobs again!!! building on the new one is frustrating you have to search for features again, i'm too busy for that.....come on guys work with the people i beg ya