2.a.iii : You must not provide any feature that circumvents any privacy protection option made available through a Linden Lab viewer or any Second Life service.
This means viewers will not be allowed to have true online status. We will remove this feature in the next Phoenix update. LL has also indicated they intend to break scripts ability to look up a users online status except for the owner and creator of the script. No time frame has been indicated for when this will happen.
2.i : You must not display any information regarding the computer system, software, or network connection of any other Second Life user.
2.j : You must not include any information regarding the computer system, software, or network connection of the user in any messages sent to other viewers, except when explicitly elected by the user of your viewer.
This means that Viewer identification tags are now a policy violation. LL has indicated that they will be breaking the viewer tagging system for ALL third party viewers between Tuesday and Wednesday with the region updates. This also breaks color tags in our viewers.
2.k : You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience of the virtual world in any way not provided by or accessible to users of the latest released Linden Lab viewer.
This means that third party viewers will no longer be allowed to innovate features which relate to the shared experience unless LL has the features in their viewers first. However LL has indicated an interest and preference in working with third party viewers to develop such features together.
Again, I will be discussing all of these changes, how they will effect our users and our viewer project on Tuesday during our Office hour at 2pm SLT. I'll provide more information on the location and live stream coordinates within the next few days.
Stay tuned...
Jessica Lyon
Project Manager
The Phoenix Viewer Project, Inc.
A long-overdue and welcome change to privacy in SL.
ReplyDeleteSo basically we're going the Faustian route of "If we didn't come up with it, it's illegal." Wonderful, just bucking wonderful. Might as well just go ahead and turn SL into Facebook 3D or Gaia Online.
ReplyDeleteThe privacy thing is welcome and not surprised they want it, but even if the feature part of it has me a bit down. Feels like LL is gathering everything under they flag. Just hope that they really work with you all to "accept" some of the nice ideas you may have in the future. Expecting a big fall of viewers in the list too, but I am just talking bout things that I don't understand completely, just a feeling.
ReplyDeletethe first step was to buy a gaming company, and now the next steps.
ReplyDeleteFor me is clear if the TPV Viewer can not bring me what i want i will use different viewers who can.
There is a fatal flaw with not allowing one to even check what viewer a person is using, though, because it makes in-world product troubleshooting that much harder. I.e. what if your popular, fancy, self-reconfiguring skybox you sell displays differently in certain TPVs but not others, and you have no way now of knowing that reliably, because not everyone you come to help on this are willing to tell you what viewer they're on, or worse yet get confused as to which one they're running at that moment? Bugfixing in that regard is going to be an absolute nightmare! And all because some chairwarmer at LL thought it was a good idea to forbid ANY technical information on what version of the software you're running was a good idea.
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ReplyDelete2.k. is so vague. What kinds of things would be included in "features which relate to the shared experience"?
ReplyDeletePretty much the whole viewer itself is what they mean. Aka all viewers that they don't make need to stop now or be sued.
DeleteLyrical: Features that alter or gather information from activity in world, such as RLV, the tip jar tracker, parcel windlight, radar, to name a few.
ReplyDeleteAm I allowed to spank people??
ReplyDeleteI sure hope not. Those spankers are annoying at best, irritating at worst, and aggravating in all cases ... ;)
DeleteActually the operative part of 2.k is:
ReplyDelete"... any feature that alters the "shared" experience of the virtual world ..."
The quotation marks are mine. So TPV features that alter the experience for only the person using the viewer would be allowed. Adding features that alter other people's view OR experience inworld are prohibited.
I think eventually I'm going to have to leave SL. I'm sad about that but V2 based viewers are not person friendly. When that is all SL will allow in world I will have no choice but to move over to a dif video game. It's a shame but I've been here since 2006 that's a lot of time but my voice doesn't seem to count anymore.
ReplyDeleteThis better not get rid of Full Screen, or I will.. *shakes fist*
ReplyDeleteSense I can't live without it on firestorm
and if this not seeing users online wouldn't that make it imposable to see it in profile or friends list.
Actually, Full Screen is available on SL's V3 viewer, so that's not going to be a problem.
DeleteScrew it, if they intend to cripple future TPVs, then Firestorm 3.3 is where I draw the line, and stick with it. Keep all the things I love, and see what ends up breaking.
ReplyDelete2(k), limiting features, has NOTHING to do with privacy issues (as their announcement claims). Not only is Linden Labs killing off the innovation and creativity that TPVs have brought over the years, as I see it they're also saying that developers will have to work for Linden Labs for free. This is disgusting.
ReplyDeleteI say screw LL and TPV directory, there's nothing in the rules that says a non-approved TPV isn't allowed to connect.
ReplyDeleteWhat they gunna do, ban everyone who uses Firestorm? That would be monumentally stupid.
I don't understand how LL could possibly be so stupid.
I'm just going to stick with opensim from now on. To hell with Linden Lab's grid and their useless viewer. Seriously what is the point of using a 3rd party viewer except for the features they offer, which from what it looks like, we're not allowed to have anymore. Someone needs to have a talk with LL about it, but I doubt they listen to anybody anymore. I refuse to use SL without RLV. I bluntly refuse it... I've made so many nice things for it, and my avatar has been fully integrated to take advantage of RLV features. If I have no choice but ti use a OpenSim grid from now on, then that's where I'm going.
ReplyDelete@Cincia
ReplyDeleteI'm really hoping your interpretation is the one LL will be using. As long as a given feature only affects my own view of the grid or the UI I choose to use to interact with it, it should be fine. Stuff that affects others' view such as the custom selection beams might be problematic. I hope it doesn't mean no built-in client AO (which technically displays the same thing as if you were using a server side one.) Double click teleport may become an issue though as it does affect what others see and provides an inworld feature LL's viewer does not.
It does mean no more stuff like the original dual attachment points or breast physics (the original ones in Emerald/Phoenix, not the ones LL developed) would be allowed.
We'll have to see what happens.
Parcel windlight affects all users of Phoenix and Firestorm (unless the user turns it off). That feature has been a huge gift to artists. Why Linden Labs wants to kill it off is beyond me. Their own sim-wide windlight setting doesn't have a tenth of its power and flexibility.
ReplyDeleteHow about creating two versions of your viewer, one for SL with Linden-approved features and another for others grids (like Inworldz), where uncontrolled innovation is allowed?
ReplyDeleteModerators in most sims have their status appearing on a board. If the script that makes this possible is put on an object, and that object is worn, it works also. It is impossible to distinguish if this comes from the bridge or from an in-world object.
ReplyDeleteLeaving the bridge available to use or modify in a viewer such as firestorm, would make it too easy for those who would make other viewers to get back what LL likes to remove.
So, bye bye bridge, and everything that came with it, including the viewer identification, flight assist, AO, etc.
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ReplyDeleteAs someone else pointed out.. the TPV list are only "recommendations" anyway just because a viewer isn't on the TPV list.. doesn't make it an "illegal viewer" i'd still use firestorm even if it wasn't on the TPV list :) the LL viewer features have always.. and will always be too limited!
ReplyDeleteanyone who has been in SL for any length of time cannot help but see that LL simply does not give a damn what users need or want. thinking anything else just sets you up for disappointment. the viewer tags don't worry me, i keep headtags turned off anyway. anything that increases my privacy is a good thing, but anyone with half a brain knows all you need to do to find out if someone is really online is IM them or check their profile, so taking away "true online status" does exactly nothing to increase privacy. LL is just being LL, a bunch of corporate asses who don't give a flying leap at a rolling donut about their customers. so what's new? and just a reminder, when i joined SL no viewer had these "features" and everyone seemed to get along fine without them. guess the kiddies will have to learn to do things the old fashioned way.
ReplyDeleteThere is something disturbing about the way that the Lindens are using voice chat to explain just what they mean by this new policy. Historically voice has been un-logged and un-policed in SL, and I feel it is lucky that a recording has been made. But that recording, unlike a log of text chat, is awkward to search for specific info.
ReplyDeleteIt is as if the Lindens want to be able to deny any exception or explanation they have made.
As always, Linden Lab has made a confuse declaration, witch will upset the residents.
ReplyDeleteWe will have to wait for them to "clarify" (or should I say explain it in less obscure ways) and for all the drama that will come with it, such as not all Lindens having the same interpretation of the text when it comes to application.
And has ever, it may break things, that may or may not be mended after some variable time.
Opensims are more and more a cool place to be !
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ReplyDeleteI am a little disconcerted by this. An "@version" call from any other viewer in IM will announce the viewer type used by an avatar, ie it will show them to be using RLV...that would be a "shared" operation and therefore illegal under the new TPV policy. Does this mean that Phoenix/Firestorm will drop RLVa, or modify it to not send out this response?
ReplyDeleteI cant even log on using firestorm since 4 hours ago. Anyone else having this problem? Can log through V3
ReplyDeleteWhy dont LL just admit that third party viewers such as Firestorm and Exodus are totally better than their viewers.
ReplyDeleteMatsuriDream's comment "If we didn't come up with it, it's illegal." is totally spot on !
All it shows is how innovative LL is not.
The whole intention is to kill off third party viewers, particularly ones that offer features that cut too close to LL's revenue stream (eg parcel windlight).
ReplyDeleteI simply hope that development continues (for at least one TPV) with opensim as a focus instead of SL. If Linden Lab wants to stagnate and fall off the planet and into irrelevance, then more power to them...
hi clausey man how ya doing here the info u need
ReplyDeleteWhy should it matter what Viewer we use? They still get our RL money for the Linden currency no matter what Viewer we are in. So what's the big deal? You would think LL would treat the better TPV's out there like "Partners in Progress" and not come up with ridiculous "privacy violations" which ultimately affect the Users right to decide how they want to experience SL.
ReplyDeleteWith regards to to Online status...shouldn't it be up to the USER to decide if they want their online status made public? These changes seem silly and unnecessary.
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ReplyDeleteI'm worried about the plan to break the ability of scripts to check online status of an avatar - I fear that may break some RLV toys, which use online status to identify when someone cheats out of a trap.
ReplyDelete2.j means that the FS/PH tags in the support group will have to be switched off by default.
ReplyDeletewell its finally true,linden labs has finally lost there marbles.i mean come on they are clearly jealous of tpv viewer's that are way much better then them.and that give tons more features then there's do..i forsee linden labs losing alot of users completely..sure many will probably stay,but only the people that are not bothered about rlv.or tags etc,
ReplyDeleteit is our right as users of the third party viewers,to choose what features we would like to have.and ones that would improve the viewer itself..not ones that linden labs says are okay and not okay..
ReplyDeleteAs I read it, you will have to report the wrong height. That (like it or not) *is* what it seems to say.
DeleteGuys, calm down. This will ONLY affect features that change the world and/or how it looks for both yourself and others.
ReplyDeleteAllow me to explain. Let's say someone uses a viewer that supports more attachment points than what the official viewer or other TPVs support. This means that when an avatar uses an extra attachment point, that prim will appear in an odd place for everyone that does not also use that TPV that supports it. LL wants the world to appear how you would expect it to for EVERYONE.
So understand that developers may add new features that are client side to make things easier or more familiar, they just cannot add features that would change how the world or how their avatar looks in a way exclusive to that viewer.
I hope this clears things up for you all who think they will restrict all new features, which simply isn't true. MOST features in TPV's are safe.
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DeleteThe decisive question is whether people will make a deliberate decision to leave Second Life because the viewer of their choice or its core features they have learned to love are no longer available. I somewhat doubt it will be very many. Most people will be very grumpy but they will love playing Second Life too much to drop it and will choose one of the remaining available options. Even if the sole option were the official Linden viewer. The only real risk for Linden Lab from the users’ side that I can see is a different one and one which will be very dangerous marketing-wise: erosion. I’ve already described this mechanism on this blog on November, 26:
ReplyDelete»People probably won’t even mainly stay away because of a conscious decision. They will just find, at a rather sub-conscious level, handling the Linden Viewer somewhat tedious, so their sessions will get shorter. Then the frequency of sessions will drop. Then they will reach the point where they ask themselves what the heck they are playing Second Life for anyway. That’s when they will stop playing altogether.«
I understand that the official Linden viewer and its interface have much improved compared to the early versions but I personally think it’s still not good enough, so what I’ve described in the last paragraph may still apply.
So Linden Lab’s proprietary policy might backfire but not necessarily. Their risk lies in _behaving_ like Apple but IMHO not _being_ anything like Apple. Linden Lab may be just a bit too confident in their powers.
Another crucial point beside the user reactions: How will TPV developers respond to this? As far as I understand they will have to accept terms and conditions which are neither exactly sensible nor acceptable nor tolerable. But I also understand they are neither Linden Lab’s employees nor contractors who must deliver. So they might just as well drop development and support and simply block their viewers from connecting to the Second Life grid. If the Phoenix/Firestorm team were to do this there would be an uproar from the side of their users, no doubt. But they are undoubtedly free to do so. And Linden Lab wouldn’t like it, or I am the more deceived.
okay this goes to a,okay what about rlv..lots an lots of users choose to use it..if linden labs take that away as well..then all the people that use that particully feature..would have there sl experiance ruined..and tags as i see it..dont harm anyone in sl..an windlight settings in the third party list rock...soo why take that away from us users..ahhh well its like LL is going to look at this..an reconcider,as they already dont anyway.but anyhpw i shall wait an see how this new policy affects users
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ReplyDeletea said...
ReplyDelete»MOST features in TPV's are safe.«
I hope you are right. For the time being I just see a lot of patronizing coming my way.
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ReplyDeleteDracule:
ReplyDeleteIt's unclear whether or not RLV will be affected. Unlike mutli-attachment or windlight for example, it's consentual. This means only those who have it enabled will see and experience the effect it has on avatars. So this means it's possible that it will stay as it will not produce strange artifacts for people who choose not to use it.
As for parcel windlight, LL has expressed an interest in implementing this officially.
aye true..it just bugs me as well as it does tp other people on here..how linden labs always comes up with stupid idea's
DeleteUnless Linden Lab implements RLV in its own viewer it is affected by paragraph 2.k of the new TPV policy. I hope I misunderstood something
Deleteaye same here..alot an lot of patronizing...but then again who do we have to thank for that...Linden Labs thats who..
ReplyDeleteThere is an MP3 with Oz Linden explaining the changes:
ReplyDeletehttp://lecs.opensource.secondlife.com/tpvd/meeting/2012-02-24.mp3
It is about 1:45 long, i wrote down the key points from it (with timestamp) here:
http://yournymph.blogspot.com/2012/02/policy-on-third-party-viewers-changed.html
So LL do not want users to know Phoenix and Firestorm more popular than theirs.
ReplyDeleteY.T., thanks a lot for taking the trouble of jotting that down!
ReplyDeleteWe are the Lindens - You will be assimilated - resistance is futile!
ReplyDelete2.a.III: Very welcome but also means that legacy profiles violate the policies as well. Probably a move to force TVPs into web based profiles. I don't see LL fixing their own privacy flaws on this anytime soon.
ReplyDelete2.k: Well, that's one way to kill competition. Actually, to me, it's quite understandable. Nobody wins by TPVs separating users any further. Bad move to break parcel-windlight but for me it's more important, that all users share a similar experience. At least visually.
A little bit terrifying. They play nice for the moment but in a few month...who knows.. it's unpredictable and this will surely discourage creative devs. On top of that, this won't change anything about malicious clients.
parcel windlight is not going to be removed. please see the MP3 here:
Deletehttp://lecs.opensource.secondlife.com/tpvd/meeting/2012-02-24.mp3
or see the short summary here:
http://yournymph.blogspot.com/2012/02/policy-on-third-party-viewers-changed.html
Privacy? Really?
DeleteAs someone displeased with LL broadcasting our profiles on the net, I find this hilarious.
I preferred it when only users logged in to the grid could read your profile, but now anyone with internet access and basic google skills can find your profile.
The only reason I use Phoenix, aside from an intense hatred of V2, is for the ability to see when people are hiding their online status.
Viewer tags I'm not as concerned about, it doesn't matter to me what client you're using.
Though, it was nice to see what people were using.
Basically it's "Use our viewer, or none at all!" again, just like the last time they tried to cripple TPV's.
:\
Thanks Y.T.
ReplyDeleteI'm just listening to it and I find it really awkward how OZ is trying to avoid any kind of acknowledgment of the achievements of TPVs. Surely not the most reliable spokesman.
@Kyu Arashibara Not true. SL always had web based profiles. Only recently you can manage your privacy settings and hide it completely from web/search-engines.
ReplyDeleteDefine "always" because when I joined five years ago, a simple search of my SL name did NOT bring up my entire profile, profile picture, picks, the works.
DeleteAnd I would very much like to know how to hide it, because I don't want your average joe wandering across my page... I had issues with a stalker like that once, wouldn't leave me alone, anything I can do to keep him from finding me again would be super.
@Kyu Arashibara
ReplyDeletePartially, you're right. Classic web profiles didn't have search engine optimization, so bots couldn't trace the pages down. The new profiles are very helpful to rise the awareness of SL. However, back then, there was no opt-out at all.
For your privacy, go here https://my.secondlife.com/settings/privacy
Are you speaking about V2 web profiles?
DeleteBecause when I joined, it was V1 and there were no web profiles.
You could barely even use secondlife.com to track people down, but then again, admittedly, I didn't USE secondlife.com for much of anything but buying my L$ once or twice a month.
Their new "social networking" type of web profiles, I am against.
So, yes, you could use the website to track down other users, but going to google and simply typing in an SL user name? No, never found myself, not until V2 came out and even then, it was a friend who found me and pointed out "I can see your SL profile on the net"
And thanks for the url, I'll be clicking on it now.
@Kyu Arashibara, I'm speaking of somewhat around 2006, boo hoo...
DeleteThe "boo hoo" is uncalled for, thanks
DeleteTrin and Kya I'm not good at this sort of thing and did not know Google would reveal things on my Second Life.
DeletePutting June Oh on Google gets me nothing but if I add Second Life it gives 2 links for me, one gives my profile the other About June Oh, which shows if I on-line and things about me posting etc.
Which of the Privacy setting do I amend, please?
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ReplyDeleteWhat with statements from Linden Lab: I expect nothing better than the usual marketing mumbo-jumbo. Of course they will by no means admit that there have been serious mistakes and pretty bad decisions on their side. They probably won’t lie but I don’t expect them to tell me all I would like to know to get a complete picture either.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I don’t fool myself: Linden Lab will go to any length to regain control over their own product. From Linden Lab’s standpoint the predecessors of the current management have shortsightedly and irresponsibly allowed for a far too strong role of TPVs. Now they are busy trying to correct that: They are a) making an effort to come up with a better viewer than the initial V2 and are b) making another effort to limit competition by stricter regulations. Their aim in the long run will undoubtedly be to get rid of the TPVs altogether, no matter if they are V1- or V2/3-based.
what strikes me right now is: same shared user experience... what about the avatar height?
ReplyDeleteIt is one of those things, where the LL viewers are reporting the wrong size and Firestorm reports the correct size...
Does that mean that future versions of FS will have to report the wrong size? Or will the V3 eventually get fixed there?
@Y.T.
ReplyDeletelol, good point but I doubt that an editor measurement is a shared experience. One of the good things OZ said is that they won't go thermonuclear on this. Well, I'm rephrasing. Thing is, Firestorm isn't accurate either. Or it's just the metric system (I've no clue how to imagine feet). Compared to prims, my av is pretty much 178 cm tall. As per Firestorm, I'm 182 cm *lol* I'm to lazy to check LL's viewer but it was odd as well, the last time i checked.
I wonder what impact this will have on legit projects such as the mesh deformer code which was purposefully released to the TPV developer community for testing purposes. I would imagine the way mesh is displayed on an av is a "shared experience."
ReplyDeleteIs it REALLY worth staying on the TPV?
ReplyDeleteNo Virginia, the sky isn't falling. It's just your viewer :)
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ReplyDeleteActually, neither the sky nor my viewer are falling --only my interest in participating in the linden lab grid..
ReplyDeleteSorry, my humor can be a little obtuse. The first line refers to those that will throw up their hands and scream I am leaving cos of change. The second refers to the lindens wanting a uniform in-world experience for everyone, so that one person will see much what another does. An example being multi-attachemnt point, a la Emerald, where emerald users saw attachments in the right spot and others saw them floating in mid air. A worthy goal IMHO and I don't feel this will overly impact upon TPV viewer innovation. For example this wont stop Exodus offering more graphic tweaking capabilities than say Firestorm. For the record, I have used V1 LL viewer, Emerald, Phoenix and now Firestorm. Each viewer had its frustrations and good points, but those that throw up their hands at every change would still be using system hair now :)
ReplyDeleteI can understand the privacy changes. I however feel this will be a boon to those multi account "playas" and lead to even more suspicion of "new" accounts. I have heretical ideas to deal with this social problem, but they are beyond the scope of the post above. You win some, you lose some.
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ReplyDeleteI am just in shock - really. If I understand what I read, they have just signed the death certificate for all 3rd party viewers, for anyone wishing to use RLV which LL has never had in their viewers and for any innovation of new features provided by people who have created the wonderful 3rd party viewers which have done so much to enhance user experience (boob jiggle and more). To limit future features to ONLY those already included in LL own viewer is an astounding move on their part and maybe one that will sign the death certificate for SL. I can't see the thousands of former Emerald, Cool Viewer, Imprudence, Phoenix, Firestorm, Kirstan, Dolphin, Ascent, (and so many others)viewer users being happy with this action. Basically throwing everyone forcibly into using SL's viewer - or a viewer that has no extra features beyond what SL offers. Death to RLV, RLV enhanced RP, Enhanced radar, and so much more. I think we will see a mass exodus to other grids after this action but then, of course we know LL has our best interests at heart. Right?
ReplyDeleteSeems like an end run to me - LL found a way to slow down the spread of TPV's, particularly Phoenix and Firestorm. "Out of sight, out of mind". Way I see it, there will be a lot of bitching about the changes but as most of us have done in the past... we will grudgingly adjust and continue enjoying SL, each in our own way. I just hope that the wonderful developers of ALL TPV's will stick it out and continue the great job they're doing.
ReplyDeleteI, for one have already mad a transition to another Grid (Inworldz) but I still come back to sl because I have so much invested. When on the other grid, I Meet so many people (new and old timers) that are sick of the bureaucracy that LL and the company provide the users on a daily basis. So, you may not leave for another month or year or 5 years, or ever. just like you lived without facebook growing up. but the thing is, you've gotten used to using it. I feel it's not the fact you used to do it that way, it's that you used to do it that way but haven't done it "that way" for a while. SL, for me, has gone to hell in a handbasket. Users are present but the community is gone. No one talks, it's all in IM. The important things about this grid are different for us all. Then end.
ReplyDeleteWell as for me I will stay in SL as long as Phoenix is workable.
ReplyDeleteAs for using a different world things change but last time I investigated other Worlds there was nothing to attract me to any of them, looked as if they were 5 to 10 years behind SL.
klying aptieDamn, that is the end of TP viewers and it will be the end of secondlife. They want ruin themselves only for pushing users to use their crappy viewer
ReplyDeleteWe too have started the transition. We have houses in both SL and InWorldz and I have even got some sims up and running in osgrid. I dont care to be herded along like one of so many mindless animals. Taking away our ability to choose features that we like by removing the ability of TPV to add new features (unless already in effect in SL's official viewer) was one step too far (IMHO).
ReplyDeleteSo what will removing "true online status" mean? Will all people who are not your friends show up as offline when you look at their profiles? Only some? Since I have never used the official V3 I have no idea what the "official" functionality is.
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ReplyDelete»True Online Status« overrides the user’s privacy settings (»Only friends and groups know I’m online« in Firestorm prefs and the »Friend can see when you’re online« checkbox in the contacts list). Any avatar tracker does about the same thing. As far as I understand, Linden Lab will no longer allow this feature, neither in TPVs nor in HUDs or otherwise applied scripts. I’d think it’s hard to find any sound argument against disallowing this: Each and every user has the right to informational self-determination and thus should be able to decide what he discloses and what not – which apparently was the original intention of Linden Lab. It is somewhat consequent that they will block this overriding both by ToS and CS and at a technical level.
ReplyDeleteSame applies to disallowing viewer identification which I think is justified regarding that some people have been harassed for using a specific viewer – of course by imbeciles, but Second Life is full of griefers, trolls and what not. I just dislike them as much as the next guy. One may suspect there is a hidden agenda behind this on the Linden side as well what with not giving an idea how many residents are using which viewer, but hey! I like to know it but I’m much afraid Linden Lab are under no obligation to hand out any information concerning this to the public.
Somebody already mentioned it: Putting profiles on the web does contradict all the privacy stuff within limits. I for my part don’t wish to appear on the web at all, so I at least turned everything off in the web profile which I could turn off.
I don't want to sound like a martyr here. SL has and will always do wtf they want. Sure I lived without this functionality for a long time before, then, *cough* emerald. but I'm saying if we are going to act as if this is the way it is because we HAVE to. LL is going to do what they want and do more, because we're laying down and allowing it.
ReplyDeleteI will just add one more thing for the sake of arguement, not that it will seem to reflect on the viewer. We also used to use rotary phones and crt monitors and have the 286 computers. I COULD go back and get used to using those too, because I grew up on those. But the modern convenience that I've gotten used to is what I like. Therefore going back to what used to be in an inconvenience.
i spend hours of work on katherines databases to make this new viewertags website http://zahndy.dyndns.org/viewertags/ all that work for nothing. also say goodbye to RLV and LLReqestAgentData
ReplyDeleteOK, So now we need to make EVERY feature we want part of the LL vanilla viewer... I suggest we start posting those requests in the appropriate places and start pushing for them at the appropriate venues. Make our voices heard, to the exclusion of everything else. LL need to stop stifling innovation
ReplyDeleteI can understand the privacy issue, but I would change the system so privacy is on, and you have to change the setting manually. This will allow come existing things like tip jars and such to work, but only if you allow it.
ReplyDeleteOn the features issue, I've allways thought LL should focus on the server side and release a basic viewer that is opened sourced, let the TPV viewer drive features and LL work with them on the server side to support it. So perhaps they are trying to do something more like that, partner with TPV to develop features we want and be the cental standard for max companiblity.
Isn't this a bit like the government telling everyone the only kind of car you can drive is a blue 1976 AMC Pacer.... unless you would rather drive a 2012 Mercedes. In that case, the Mercedes must look just like the 1976 Pacer and you have to remove any Mercedes emblems. The only way someone would know you're driving a Mercedes is if they asked. But why would anyone ask since all cars would look the same?
ReplyDeleteBTW, for those not familiar with American cars, the Pacer was one of the ugliest and most disliked cars of all time. Of course some people liked them, but some people like the LL V2 viewer too - who can account for taste?
I 2nd Jess' comments in the audio about TPV dev's heading to InWorldz(or one of the many other grids) and begin helping their grid grow...
ReplyDeleteThe comment was made that there was no content there...
Well I am sure a message in the opening windows of PH and FS will let a few people know there is a cheaper and more welcoming alternative to SL to develop, build, create and virtually live...
What with the features restrictions: The Lindens use the Emerald multiple attachments story as a welcome explanation for their stance, and at the first glance they are of course very right. I recall that I have been quite annoyed myself because other people not on Emerald saw my leg cuffs hovering somewhere in front of me. That is certainly a messed-up and not at all shared experience alright. But this is the only thing that I presently recall which definitely spoilt the shared experience. And, having spoken of the first glance, let’s take a second one: If I’m not very much mistaken, this Emerald feature forced Linden Lab to provide more attachment points themselves. Without the pressure of Emerald we might still not have them today…
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to other things Linden Lab say will spoil the »shared experience« like Parcel Windlight or coloured tags, I don’t buy. Anybody can set sky and water to their liking, so there’s no shared experience here at all. Would they force the Second Life day cycle upon us now? I hope not. And using their powers on a trifle like tag colours just unmasks them as childish bean counters who cling to details because they don’t have a general vision. This is not encouraging from my user’s standpoint. If the pressure to innovate induced by the TPV devs is gone, the yes-butters and not-knowers will keep on determining the way how Linden Lab will play their game. I wouldn’t want to be a why-notter there.
Okey. So the big question remains here: Will Linden Lab _really_ play ball? Or will they just take the TPV devs for a ride? This Oz Linden spoke about things that happened under a totally different management. Okey, I’ll give them that much. But Linden Lab have done little to regain their customers’ trust.
Lilmix, I have an InWorldz account since early November and got a bit more interested now due to current developments. There are even some creators I know from Second Life. InWorldz is of course far from being as developed as Second Life is but there certainly is some good potential (like most likely on other grids I don’t know). Btw, I didn’t like the viewer InWorldz provides, and tried the current Firestorm – my avatar didn’t rez, no idea why. Phoenix 1.6 works fine.
ReplyDeleteTry imprudence as it might be better. phoenix is not really made for IW at the current build, though if it works, that's cool. The only reason sl looks the way it does is because it's been around for-fking-ever and was THE grid, the only grid.
ReplyDeleteLast time I visited Inworldz (I visit every couple of months) it was like SL was in 2007. IF Inworldz gets big enough you can expect them to exert control over their grid and viewer too. That's just good business sense. But by all means, explore many virtual worlds. I saw that Ball State University bought Blue Mars (another virtual world) so it's about to change dramatically.
ReplyDeleteI bet Linden Labs deeply regrets the decision of releasing the initial code as Open Source. Now that grids like Inworldz appear and seem to grow massively, they are afraid to lose residents.
ReplyDeleteNow they are closing the gates like an anxious king shutting his castle doors.
Linden Labs really thinks to get away with this but in reality they are making it very unfriendly and uninviting to come and join their world.
I made the decision to go to Inworldz a long time ago and with every new step Linden Labs is taking, I feel my decision was the right one.
I dont't want to go back. Ever.
Hugs
So they are going to break that scripts that tell if the admins of our sim are online or not...nice... thanks LL, now no one knows who to call if the griefers come back. Lovley.
ReplyDeletevery welcome addition... the TPV shouldn't compromise privacy... rather they should enhance it..
ReplyDeleteIn general I hate most TP software..emerald was one of them.
Firestorm should work to enhance it and not compromise it!
Well, personally, now if I see someone hiding out not to be seen, there's no reason for them to be friends with me in the first place. I don't avoid friends in RL and usually answer their emails or phone calls, so why should I hide out here. if you're that busy, say so.
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ReplyDeleteThe »no content« argument what with other grids is a blunt instrument. Using it may backfire badly: The mostly user-generated content already exists. It only resides in numbers on Second Life – as of now. It by no means has to stay that way, and it’s not even a big deal or really costly to shift the stuff over to any other compatible grid. If creators decide to sell their stuff outside of Second Life, who will keep them from doing so? I’ve been only briefly on InWorldz, and even during that short time I found several brands/vendors I know from Second Life. I expect to find even more, should I care to take a thorough look.
ReplyDeleteOf course I as a Second Life resident am not allowed to save my precious inventory (most of which I don’t have full permissions for) to disk and then upload it to another grid of my choice – the legal points are pretty clear here. So I wouldn’t consider this, not because I’m a decent citizen, I simply don’t have to. Seriously, is my inventory an investment I have to protect? I think not. Since I’ve been on Second Life for over five years now and collected a lot of things over time, my inventory is full of pretty outdated stuff. So it’s a big and decisive difference between what I have and what I am actually using in my Second Life as of early 2012. Who will keep me from suggesting to my favourite clothiers and builders that they should please consider offering their stuff on another grid of my choice as well so I can buy it again? I’m quite an average user with average ideas, so others might do the same. I don’t think I would have to spend even 50 US$ to reacquire the stuff I’m using presently on Second Life. And when I compare these 50 US$ to the tiers I am to pay for a decent parcel on Second Life… Having land on Second Life is expensive, not the clothes or builds I buy.
Summary: Linden Lab are pretty much running the risk of overplaying their hand because they might be too overwhelmed by their own grandiosity. It’s all about threshold values: As soon as a critical mass of dissatisfied users turn their backs on Second Life, others may follow in numbers. It’s some sort of avalanche effect. Combined with the erosion I mentioned in an earlier post, it might be fatal.
One more thing: Linden Lab don’t like to be driven by TPV devs on their own turf. They should be grateful instead: It’s at least still their turf. Should the major TPV devs decide to stop supporting Second Life because it ceases to be rewarding from their standpoint and dedicate their work to other grids, Linden Lab should be very sorry. Outside of their own turf it would be real, hard competition which may or may not harm their business big time. It’s not really a wild guess to assume that it would cost them dearly. And I take it that the technological gap between Second Life and other grids which might get that TPV devs help would shrink more rapidly than Linden Lab would fancy. If they manage to annoy their customers as well as the TPV devs, well… They make their bed, and they must lie in it.
I’m a marketing, PR and advertising man IRL. I wouldn’t want to apply for a job at Linden Lab at the moment.
Btw, this site provides a wealth of information on the OpenSimulator technology, a list of grids, and so forth: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
ReplyDeleteI found Raymond Martinek's response interesting because I've seen this happen. Now an SL resident of over 5 years, I've seen almost all my friends gradually leave SL. These are people who owned land and regularly purchased Lindens. The most recent was someone who felt she was being forced to switch to a V2-style viewer to see the increasing amount of mesh in SL. This was before we realised there would be a version of Phoenix with mesh, but by then she'd already made the break from SL and has no wish to return. This isn't people switching to different virtual worlds. They're either finding different online experiences (such as MMORPGs) or they do things in RL instead. Likewise, I have gone from a land renter in SL, to a wanderer. I would regularly buy $L at least twice a month. Now I buy maybe once every three months. I now spend only a tiny amount of time in SL, mostly to DJ or (when asked) to help with RFL events. If it wasn't for the Firestorm viewer, I wouldn't use SL at all. I find the LL viewer wholly unusable and it impedes my SL experience to the point that it becomes impossible to interact with people. Think of it as being a car that is so badly designed that I need to spend all my time concentrating on the controls. Rather that settling in to the driving experience and looking where I'm going, I'm spending all my time looking at the dials and having to look where the gear-stick and pedals are. If the LL viewer WAS a car, it would be deemed so unsafe it would be made illegal to drive on the road.
ReplyDeleteTalking about the viewer usability, I think that most of LL's lead is suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect: "...is a cognitive bias in which the unskilled suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes."
ReplyDeleteTrin, you made my day! I’m still laughing.
ReplyDeleteI would have written that stance off as a bad case of cognitive dissonance: »This MUST not be so, therefore it CANNOT be so.«
The privacy issues I can agree with; but not allowing additional features that arn't in the LL viewer seems rather strange to me. LL are in the business of making money which they do on Land sales/rent and inworld currency transactions. They give the viewer away for free. I would have expected LL to turn around and say, there are now so many 3rd party viewers available were not going to bother with maintaining ours any more.
ReplyDeleteWhat they did was change to comply with the new EU privacy laws. Then they decided to use the writing time to slip in some cases that make developers give the company any new features they want for free. So now you have to submit your feature to the company, wait for them to put it into their money making scheme, then you can add it to your viewer ONLY after it has been released in theirs. YAY. This was the last straw for me pretty much. Their economy isn't strong enough to keep me there after pulling some shit like this. It's time for us designers and builders to move on.
ReplyDeleteWell, clearly the idea on the "shared experience" item is that LL will decide what they want to develop and not ever again be put into a position of being driven to incorporate a feature because third parties have made it widely available. I understand that from their business model, but it sucks for the end user. I doubt we'd have avatar physics with this policy in place.
ReplyDeleteVala, if corporate life were always guided by rationality, you would certainly be right. But sadly it is very often irrational for a variety of reasons, for example due to internal politics or the compulsion to stay in control in- or outside of the company at any cost. These are interests which compete among themselves and with the real business goals of a company, and they win often enough.
ReplyDeleteThere was a time when linden lab crippled with the inability to add and fix things in the official viewer in timely manner, decided to open source the viewer and have everyone do ~whatever~ they would want to do with it, and that any server side exploits ( see privacy issues ) would be fixed server side, when the client was closed source and such exploits shown up, they actually fixed them, instead of uhh, perhaps asking an unknown hacker to take down the exploit, and that worked quite well.
ReplyDeleteBecause regardless of the viewer none of those exploits would work, but now apparently the exploits are free to exist as long they are not in an approved TPV viewer. Whatever they might be, there is just no interest whatsoever anymore in fixing them but try to enforce them client side. And that is a gigantic, but a gigantic error, the client can NEVER be trusted.
As for the new features, its idiotic that so many creative and fun things will vanish, and others won't come to light or shown up in public, because they are somehow jealous their main viewer won't have it. Effectively crippling ALL development of new cool and fun things everyone would want to see.
There is no point whatsoever for the second life open source viewer project anymore, other than fixing bugs for free to linden lab.
OK, so LL really have finally completely lost the plot. I was already on my way out as I was beginning to find SL somewhat lame, and thought I have accounts on both Avination and InWorldz, I feel that they suffer from the same basic limitation of SL. namely the inability to leave the 'walled garden' The idea of a 3D web really appeals to me. SL may be technically somewhat ahead of the other grids, but that gap is quickly narrowing, and for some things, e.g. sailing and car racing, some Open Sim based grids are superior (Aurora has regions that are unlimited in size = no sim crossings). OK, this is about a viewer and LL's myopic new TPV policy, which will drive the more adventurous away from SL. SL will indeed become merely a 3D version of Fakebook. SL is also extortionately expensive, it would be possible to run over 25 regions on OS Grid for the cost of one in SL. Walled gardens tend also to be an expensive option, playing to the greed of most creators, (some, to their credit, are not greedy, and charge reasonable prices for their products)
ReplyDeleteI use Firestorm and Phoenix on as many different grids as I can and hope that Firestorm continues to develop and include all the features of Phoenix, especially a Grid Manager. I am slowly developing a real liking for Firestorm, even though is obviously suffers from it's LL V2 pedigree. I also hope that Phoenix/Firestorm puts more emphasis on useability on grids that are not SL, as they are both viewers that have a great deal of functionality not found on other viewers, though better building and export/import support would not come amiss.
To those of you who want a world where you can enjoy RLV, perhaps a move to OS Grid, or one of the other Open Sim based grids may be in order - be brave, Open Sim grids need you!
I shan't be leaving SL as a consequence of their TPV policy changes, but I'm petty sure that I shall be visiting less. I'm already downgrading my premium account to basic, and abandoning my land, (yet more land to be added to the vast acreages of unsold land on offer) and as a result I shall spending fewer Lindens. I have a wonderful new home on an Open Sim based grid, that is connected to the wider Metaverse by Hypergrid, made so much better just recently by Hyperica... give it a try, you might like it.
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ReplyDeleteGee, they are finally killing the ability to check user online status with their key? About time.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I have always said that the three (yes, exactly three)reasons to use third party viewers over the official LL viewer was
1) true online status
2) you can see what viewers others are using
3) sim wide radar.
This effectively wipes 1 and 2 from third party viewers. Anyway, I have gone back to using the official LL viewer anyway because now that LL is continuing development, Firestorm will always be behind. The model worked well when LL had stopped developing the 1.3x viewer but now that they have picked up development again, third party viewers are not as superior as they once were. I am still a fan of Firestorm and their efforts and hate that LL has chosen to eliminate 2 of 3 features why I would use it over the LL viewer but as I said, I have already gone back to using only the official viewer so I won't have to jump ship now.
A good read http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/
ReplyDeleteI apologize for being blunt and sounding like a "you know what". Second life for me became an outlet for social interaction and grew to lots of time spent inworld. I have noticed in the last year or more, that the "community" side of second life is disappearing, fast. What used to be in local chat is not mostly done in IM. Either that is because no one spends time in sl and just has it running, or that no one is allowed to post what is in IM but has free reign on local chat. Whatever the reason, conversations have died. Also, I notice that user statistics are gone from the login page. Is that a privacy thing, too? I don't know but when I first came into sl, I saw as many as 70 - 80,000 users online at one time. That number has dwindled down to 50k in 3 years. That could be because of economy, or lack of good judgement on LL side. Whatever the reason, it's noticed. What used to make things fun is gone. I would rather go to the "other grid" where I can chat with other people that have been here and know what is going on and trying not to make the same mistakes. Of course we all make them, big ones even. Wherever you go, or whatever grid you get on, have fun, but not at the expense of others. Make it a community.
I heard Inworldz was predated 2007. That is obvious, because it's not been around the same time as sl. Give it time. Some things are better than graphics. I mean it's beautiful in sl but, at least for me, that's all it offers me, beautiful sims and avatars. I think I can do without that for a sense of belonging and good conversations. Peace out and good luck on where your journey takes you!
whaaaat? LL is choking innovation simply because they hadn't thought of feature X first?? That you could only develop a new feature if they are involved in the process?? what kind of crap is that?
ReplyDeleteWhat if a sim is catered to PH/FS users and is all about the features unique to these viewers and the UI's? That sim now is restricted from displaying it's content, because it is a shared virtual experience.
Hiding a true online status is ok, but can only these scripts be broken for the status of usuers not within the same region as the script. If you're in a region, your status can be known known to all in this region, regardless of LL's efforts. OK the creator of an obj can be known to be online? Well then this just deprives those creators of being allowed to hide their true online status, a double standard for those that wish so much privacy. Dont create anything with your main account if you like to be invisible! jeepers!!
Bottom Line, LL want us to use their viewer and is slowly trying to find way to choke all TPV's off the grid. End result, many more long-time residents become alienated and leave SL for other virtual worlds...
i think it sucks
ReplyDeleteNow that the cards are dealt, everyone has to play them. I don’t see that Linden Lab have any aces up their sleeve.
ReplyDeleteIf the TPV devs would see to it that their viewers work well with other grids, I’d certainly appreciate that because it would add the viewer of my choice (i. e. Firestorm) to a variety of possible destinations I could turn to.
Another big »If«: If all the Second Life TPV devs would a) decline the offer to get castrated by Linden Lab and would b) not like to subscribe to another existing grid (or other grids in general) either, it certainly would be c) an option for them to unite and set up their own grid. Simple as that. This would make good sense if the participating dev crews would treat this as a win-win-situation and consider competition an advantage, not a threat. What Linden Lab are doing now is try to enforce a zero-sum-game, and I very much doubt that it will work as they seem to expect. Zero-sum-games almost never work, at least not in the long run. It’s rather likely that it would turn out to be a negative non-zero-sum game (all parties lose), but only if one narrows the focus on Second Life. The TPV devs can opt out of Second Life any time. Linden Lab can’t. That makes all the difference.
I think LL is being stupid again, inhibiting development and considering such things as which viewer is used as a privacy issue. I've found viewer tags helpful many times when users asked for help and told me the wrong viewer.
ReplyDeleteI cannot see it being a privacy issue, because it tells you nothing about the individual. If location was revealed, that might be a privacy issue. But not technology.
LL does is not even able to detect when some logs in with a boot viewer!
ReplyDeleteStill I, that Im a Mesh viewer hater and proud of it, use latest firestorm on OS grid.
So Start thinking of Open sim's not only as a place foe neirds, but as the future!
Yes, for sure the ones that only think of profit ca fear Open sims, but there are close grids as Avination, Inworldz and more, so time to move on!
Wait wait wait, does this mean that in sl clubs will be affected with the whole online board thing? Because from my understanding breaking the scripts to disallow any indication of anyone being online would disrupt the whole online board product line if I am thinking on this correctly.
ReplyDeleteThat last one is going to kill all the beautiful creativity you have born here at Firestorm. FS is the geeky viewer, it has tricks and access points V3 doesn't have. I hope they don't make you remove those :(
ReplyDeletexoRyderox, you got that right. But there will certainly be a solution for this specific issue, like everybody who wants to have his online-status displayed must log into the device and thus confirm his consent.
ReplyDelete@Holger Gilruth
ReplyDeleteWhat other viewers? TPV stands for Third Party Viewer, anything that isn't the SL Viewer3 is a TPV. So they are ALL affected by this new tyrranical edict. This isn't just pick on Firestorm day, they are doing this to everyone. So we're back to the Emerald fiasco again... wonderful...
st-blogustine, I don’t think the current situation is comparable to the »Emerald fiasco«:
ReplyDeletea) You name one major difference yourself: This affects all TPVs, not only one.
b) The other one being that Linden Lab were lucky at the time that Phoenix came round the corner. Thus the Emerald users could switch all easy and did not run away. Now Linden Lab may find that residents as well as TPV devs may ditch them. That might cut deep enough into the take to make them squeal.
Mixed feelings about this.
ReplyDeleteI use phoenix mostly for video recording. So use the windlight settings in the quick menu, not the parcel settings. So I think that is save there.
Real Online Status: this one should've been removed long time ago! If someone hides their online status and then you 'still' can see it, no matter if you're friended this person or not, is a huge invasion of their privacy.
When I hide my Online Status and some person desided to tell me they still see me and demand my attention: MUTE and Bye forever!
LL is restricting things too much though, that much is true, and as usual, we really have to wait and see what the real effects will be.
In the "shared experience" section, meaning LL Viewers get it first, I wonder if that will attack RLVa which is not standard in LL V2 but is standard in Firestorm?
ReplyDeleteI'm not too concerned about this as long as RLV still works. If they break RLV, we'll it was fun while it lasted but you won't be seeing me anymore.
ReplyDeleteAs far as not showing what viewer other players are using, it will make debugging harder but not impossible, you can always IM the other person and ask what viewer they are using.
@Matsuri>> don't let the door hit you on the way out.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like LL is killing TPV's. Not allowing them to be other than their own (shitty, user-non-serving) viewer.
ReplyDeleteAnd to not even let you see what viewer other's are using? That's really stretching privacy. Seems that they just don't want you to be able to know that very few serious users use their software.
I actually thought things had been moving in a better direction, that they sort of accepted that their viewer wasn't very good, but that they'd do other things and let peeps like you guys make actually useful viewers. Now they reject Qarl's additions and cripple TPVs. Seems like we're right back to LL hates their users again.
Did T. Linden get rehired or something?
The scripting feature which allows one to detect on line status regardless of privacy settings is the function
ReplyDeletellRequestAgentData(uuid,DATA_ONLINE);
This behavior has been controversial for some time:
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4649
Being on the LL TPV List merely means that you have stated that your viewer features conform to the policies set by LL. Any viewer shown to be non-conforming will be blocked regardless of whether they are on this approved list or not.
ReplyDeleteI think lots of you are panicking for no reason, i never used viewer tag and that seems to me a very small thing anyway, developpers will have to use each viewer in turn to test make sure in the first place that their product/features all works as expected with every one of them viewers, which seems to me to be the sensible thing to do anyway, exactly as one has to do for internet browsers. I will miss the ability to get other peoples online status from script but i can live with that, i always suspected LL would rip it one day. And finally i don't think LL would be so shortsighted as to break substancial part of the RLV, they are speaking of "other peoples" viewers, not the users viewer... So please put some peace in your mind before you attend the Office Hour.
ReplyDeleteAre the SL staff communists? Give the people what they want. Give the customers what they want. Taking away features we have had for years because they are too lazy, stupid, or controlling to implement themselves is just insane! Why do third party open source viewers succeed? Because every SL viewer I have used is buggy and lacks the features I love. You take away these features. I'm leaving SL and going to a virtual world where I can have my freedom!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteGood Grief .. does this mean Ad boards we use for advertising and if we are online or not, will be broken?? Seriously??
ReplyDeletethe last one where I think you are saying all TPVs have to play nice with LL's ugly baby... When will LL listen to us that we don't like their ugly Baby.
I'll be at the meeting, this is making my head hurt.
I pay for a sim and run a business with RL income here.
It seems as if LL wants to run off all commerce and make SL a game to run through caves and pick up diamonds or whatever with little rats running around.
sigh
On reflection, and privacy issues aside, I think that Phoenix and the others viewers are a victim of their own success.
ReplyDeleteLets suppose, and it's not hard to imagine, that Phoenix adds some really new cool feature. LL are now in a bind.
If they try and add the same feature to their viewer, in theory, Phoenix could drag them through the courts shouting copyright theft.
Also, the new viewers are pushing the boundries of what LL wanted for their system; the privacy issue being a case in point.
The simple approch for LL is to say, you can't have it till we have it, that way you cant try and prosecute us later for IP theft, and if you tell us about it in advance, we can steal your really cool idea.
Also, it means it's impossible for you to take the viewer in a direction we don't approve of and start adding features that are against our ever changing TOS.
Can anyone say 'sour grapes'? LL opened their source code to encourage innovation and ingenuity, saw what third parties were doing with that, and now want to nip it in the bud - unless it's "shared". Agree with Dividni who said they just want free use of OS developers >.< Actually I suspect this entire policy has come around because they've seen how few people are using THEIR viewers compared to the cool ones made by outside parties! Well I don't mind so much losing shared features (although I only just found out how to set parcel windlight) but as people have said, does this include nixing things such as double attachment points? Is that really 'shared' just because more stuff is visible on a TPV avatar..? (Am guessing... yes, because the LL client users see it and want it.) Aw shucks LL really know how to spoil everyone's fun don't they.
ReplyDeleteI guess this means no more OTR, time to cancel my account.
ReplyDeleteI sell a system that delivers items to a group of people, delivery is not reliable if the person is offline, so now there is no way to check online status before delivering, thanks a bunch LL.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they could try fiximng their own problems before creating new ones for others.
Dee Kass said: "Good Grief .. does this mean Ad boards we use for advertising and if we are online or not, will be broken?? Seriously??"
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't mean that, since in that case you are the owner of the script that does the detection.
Seems LL is up to their old ways again..trying to make THEIR (sucky) viewer the main choice. Cant blame em but...freedom to choose , and choose one as good should be OUR right not THEIR choice. pfftt...im about to dump SL havent been in that much anyway and 5 yrs is a little long!!
ReplyDeleteOK ... so there taking our features away why ... one of there own viewers does exactly break the rule of 2k 2.k : You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience of the virtual world in any way not provided by or accessible to users of the latest released Linden Lab viewer. < there still activly allowing people to use v1.23.5 wich does not support mesh does not have alpha layering does not support tatoos so on and so forth ... doesnt the lack of all those features " impeed the shared experience of the virtual world " there cracking on 3rd party views for this and one of there own WICH they still freely circulate and allow downloads of does exactly the same crime -> way to go linden labs take a look at ur own gear b4 killing somthing else thats better AND on that note ... IF LL would listen to the consumers who use this platform - maybe more of us would use there brand of UI to view the world
ReplyDeleteand further more ... privacy whats privacy in sl - u can lock doors on ur home n somone can simply cam in and sit on somthing n there inside oh oh online status in viewers well thats a farse too even IF you hide ur status in the viewer way to go linden labs - we have web profiles n on the web profile if u go to somones page that u think there ofline and there online a little green dot next to there name shows u they are online n that has NOTHING to do with any viewer and can even be seen from outside secondlife for those n seemingly there are those still unaware of how to set there privacy in line to that but still wont hide your online status from anyone within sl just viewing web profile so taking true online out of viewers is pointless when LL themselves have given us a way to circumvent there own polacy with somthing else they drempt up in a moment of wis.... oh wait no stupidity and oh wow privacy on SL - yet u can LINK ur profile with facebook - hows that privacy open urself up to every single user of facebook wich is a good
ReplyDelete80+% of the world - privacy wat a joke ... LL themselves is doing all they can to minimize privacy n yet they get bitchy at TPV's when there making the exact same failures n that still doesnt stop people violating ur privacy in world from say stepping into the corner of ur parcel to circumvent the new parcel privacy things then just camming on in n can still hide your look at points in all viewers so ud never really know ... common guys look at the bigger picture i happen to like the color name tags made the place bit more interesting not that i care wat platform u prefere to use but was nice to see people expressing themselves by the colors they chose to use so again this is just LL doing the angry LL ant dance ... flexing there muscles everything there moaning about is circumventable by there own programing - yay web profiles n other genius creation
Privacy protection?!?!? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
ReplyDeleteI remember when they introduced adult rating for child protection. How serious they are!
LL knows their viewer is crap. By instituting a policy of both not allowing others to see what viewer a person is using & preventing 3rd party viewer from being innovative is doing nothing but keeping residents in the dark about better viewers with better features.
ReplyDelete__ the 'no altering the shared experience blah blah blah' rule has been there before. yes, i remember seeing it.
ReplyDelete__ i know it SOUNDS LIKE it means that every third party viewer must be as buggy and ugly as the official viewer, but in practice... it's really a non-rule as far as i can tell. or like Cincia says, it's only to stop viewers from griefing other viewers by changing their windlight settings or some such nonsense.
__if YOU want a different experience than the buggy 'official LL world experience,' then go right ahead!
@ Daniella Looming
ReplyDeletethere still activly allowing people to use v1.23.5
they have notr blocked it yet, but that is not the same as acticely allowing people to use something. You had to look for the download in the first place, as the main viewer for download was v2/3
there cracking on 3rd party views for this and one of there own WICH they still freely circulate and allow downloads of does exactly the same crime
WRONG! V 1.23.5 has not been available for download on the SL website for over a month now. Even before that you had to look for the download of the old viewer, so no, it is no longer available to download and was not easily available before that
If Phoenix Team will stay as a TPV Viewer i will send it where i want it and that is the trash. If you have not enought mind in the brain to walk your own independend way then you should stop develope it
ReplyDeletefor the script to get online status i heard of a possibility that the script could monitor the owner of the object, there could also be a permission system to think of, with a way to revoke permission through a right click on an object after a permission was granted, so staff leaving a business can warrant that they are no longer monitored
ReplyDeleteAlot of people have talked about other Grids, I just wanted you all to know that there are many to choose from some better than others. I joined SL back in 2006 I have seen alot of changes. Last year a friend of mine asked me to help him and his bussiness partner in a new Grid they where trying to start up and get running. This Grid doesn not use the same Server side software as SL, it has the promise to be better than sl ... lot less lag, better support, better scripting engine (yes LSL will still work too). This Grid is made by SL users and content creators for Vurital 3d world users. I have been there a year we do not restrict any viewers, in fact we welcome the developers of TPV to add us to thier Grid list. We welcome every one with open arms, so long as you are not a griffer, or spamer, or any other kind of harassment. We have weekly meetings not only for the community to talk with the Grid Owners and Admins but we also as an Exective staff meet once a week to discuess how to make the user experance better, or what can we do to get more people to join or more contect creators in the Grid. The Owners are wonderfull people that care more about making a great place to have fun with other people across the glob then they do about money. They do not charge for uploads of any kind, alot of the things that you pay for in SL are no cost in this Grid.
ReplyDeleteSims are alot cheeper too only $25.95 a month and none of the set up fees or other added costs of land ownership like in SL. There are alot of other options in this Grid that you will not ever find in SL like veriable regions where you can have a small Sim or a very large Sim such as 512 X 512 meters. I am not saying leave SL. If the people that use TPV maybe started a letter in protest of these changes and enough people signed there name to it maybe LL would change thier mind. Even though I am an Admin on another Grid I still log into SL all the time.
I beleve people should have options availble to them and not be limited. However I also understand the tech side of things and the support nightmare it creates when there are people that just dont understand anything computer or software related. However the best thing to do is to educate your users and not restric them or take way a feature that is not harming anyone. Privicy is fine and should be protected however the better thing to do is to make somthing like the Viewer info in the tags an option if you want to display it or not ... not just take it way.
Jessicaann Wrigglesworth
LL is desperate to find a way to render 3rd party viewers as lame as their viewer. They are breaking the tags so no one will be able to see that the VAST majority of SL members do NOT use viewer 2. I've noted at some large events I have been too, that most use Phoenix or Firestorm, with a smattering of a few other viewers like Singularity. Its just BS that this has anything to do with privacy. It is such a transparent policy to attempt to make all the 3rd party viewers conform to LL's control since, heaven forbid, the 3rd party viewer might offer us a BETTER experience.
ReplyDeleteLL is run by a bunch of 'suits' who are so immersed in the corporate mindset of CONTROL that they are really clueless to what all of us who have created the content of SL and made it what it is. All LL is capable of is breaking things. Would be nice if they'd use some of the money that we spend in SL to hire some competent programmers who actually know what they are doing. Disgusting.
Honestly, sometimes it's better to take something away, for our own good. The viewer has no business of being part of the name tag, although it is interesting. There are plenty of other options. It won't cut off new users from being introduced, because they can't see viewer tags anyway. It would have been an incredible stupid move by LL, if the goal was to make TPVs disappear. Actually it will draw even more attention to TPVs, due to the fact, that more people will promote their choice properly. Also, LL can't force the devs, to not share statistics or to not provide great support, like Firestorm does and I won't take it for granted.
DeleteSaying that people should see, what particular viewer the majority is using, has also one major drawback. It's advertising that might end up in complete market domination. If people see 90% are using Phoenix, they probably won't try something else. Nothing good comes ever from virtual monopoles.
"Trin Trevellion said...
ReplyDeleteSaying that people should see, what particular viewer the majority is using, has also one major drawback. It's advertising that might end up in complete market domination. If people see 90% are using Phoenix, they probably won't try something else. Nothing good comes ever from virtual monopoles."
You mean like LL making every possible attempt to hide from every new resident that there are other viewer options available by not only removing that information from tags but making all tags the same color as well. Yes, I understand the need for personal privacy & the need to keep unnecessary harm to come to residents. But what does removing a viewer tag, or especially preventing 3rd party viewers from adding features that the LL viewer hasn't, have a D@#N thing to do with privacy?
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ReplyDeleteNo noob has ever seen the TPV tags alright. Noobs got told about TPVs when SL-savvy users helped them through their first days/weeks inworld. This is the only sound explanation why clearly more than half of the Second Life residents are using Third Party Viewers. It’s all about good old word-of-mouth recommendation.
ReplyDeleteWell, sod it. For the common users the tags are quite irrelevant, a mere gimmick. They don’t need them.
For inworld supporters of any kind the situation is a totally different one. The tag-removal is a major pain in the bum to them because it was far easier for them to help out when they knew at a glance what the other party was using. Many PC- and SL-noobs simply have issues even understanding what a viewer is, so quite naturally they won’t be able to tell you exactly what they are on. They are not to blame, that is just so. Up to now they got helped quickly, they learned quickly. Everybody was happy.
Then Linden Lab horn in and spoil the fun: missing the purported aim, making other people’s job harder and wasting their time very unnecessarily instead. »Thank you very, very mu-hu-huch…«
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ReplyDeleteI have 6 viewers currently installed, each with separate cache. I am currently looking at the ugly baby (still chuckling about that) and I can see that first off, you are going to have to make the camera controls as big as a barn, not dockable and not resizable. This is so everyone can share the experience :)Then hide the world map so you can only bring it up on your MystiTool. Also, you will have to hide the media play button and be content to have your chat logs buried somewhere up the devil's behind. Why in the hell can't LL get the point?
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ReplyDeleteWhen is Phoenix going to break from SL and open your own 'virtual world'
ReplyDeleteIt's obvious you hold extreme talent compared to LL
I rather pay you monthly then LL..
Does that mean that we will be be able to get the "add" feature for tattoo layers for the Phoenix viewer?
ReplyDeleteI think the new LL privacy in SL the best things! Im Happy!
ReplyDeleteJust more of the dictatorial attitudes by LL. Yet we all continue to pay their outrageous prices and continue to support them? I had trouble with the settings on my sim in SL. I called the concierge line and someone came to my sim. They saw I was using Phoenix and told me to download and use their viewer or they wouldn't help me. And then just left. I have been looking at the other grids out there. Virtual Highway appears to be the most stable. I, for one, am sick of the LL attitude.
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ReplyDelete@Jessicaann Wrigglesworth I was wondering what the name of the grid is that you set up. I would like to check it out.
ReplyDeleteDo these other games have all the things that SL has in them?
ReplyDeleteMy past impressions have been other worlds are for builders and creaters and not "game" users as myself.
Are they trying to make people want to leave SL?
ReplyDeleteThat's what it seems like.
And i don't like it at all.
They are basically making it so 3rd part viewers have no place.
This is not the SL i joined years ago, and i think i will start looking for another world to spend time in.
Can someone suggest a grid that embraces adult things?
ReplyDeleteI'm sick of this.. i only go to SL cause of.. adult things in nature.
So any grid that embraces adult things, i will move to.
I'm just so fed up with LL's crap.
what's wrong with this viewer i can't stay more than 5 minutes and i take crash
ReplyDeleteI don't understand the fuss about the loss of tags. Viewer choice is like religion or sexuality - you dont need to broadcast it.
ReplyDeleteI've tried all available viewers and I have my favourites - but I've never enabled tags, because I don't care what other people use.
If someone asks me about my viewer, I'll tell them - but I don't push my preferences onto others.
Ensuring the shared experience, makes sense, because there is a higher probability that a user will experience your product, as you intended.
NomadofNorad mentioned inworld troubleshooting... surely that would be less of a problem if the shared experience was common across all viewers?
Mesh can barely be described as a shared experience yet, since many people have avoided mesh-enabled viewers, due to resource-hungry code requiring faster hardware.
With non-mesh Phoenix, I could happily run 3 accounts at once. With FS, the frame rate drops to single figures, with just 2 running. Having an option to turn off power-hungry mesh support would be a desireable feature for me - but nobody is gonna make that work, unless LL do the same.
As a frequent flyer, I dislike windlight sharing, because it can change quickly and unpredictably, as you pass thru various regions. (FS beta was a nightmare for flyers, because of that). I'm permanently set at midday and that's how I like it.
I would certainly miss free uploads, if they were removed! Textures often take a lot of attempts to get just right. Free trials have saved me a ton of L$.
181 comments since I last read this the other day, wow! Well, here is my prediction based on past experience with two other highly popular online chat programs. LL wants control of their product, and will get it one way or another. All the griping everyone is doing will fall on deaf ears. There is no comparable program at this time, and until there is users will not defect en masse. In 2006 ActiveWorlds' (AW, the original 3D online chat game) resident count went from 5k online any given weeknight to 100 in a period of months. There were similar differences between Corp and Users in that program as we are experiencing now in SL. But AW users had a better place to go, and go they did EN Masse -> to SecondLife! AW is still running with a daily user count of 100. AW Corp owns more virtual space than LL can even dream about, and being the huge corp they are the source of their profit is not public knowledge. If users were paying for the program why did it not close or change?! Prior to AW I used Excite's Virtual Places (late 90s) which was a groundbreaking 2D chat, and boasted an average 15k Residents any given weeknight. (those were big numbers back then) Excite made a public plea to residents to avail themselves of the doubleclick ads in order to help support the program, but residents weren't buying. (VP was free). With no notice aside from a rumor spreading three days priorto, Excite closed the program completely one day, leaving residents adrift on the web, and entered into Chapter 11. Various programs tried to pick up the slack (homeless residents), one you may have heard of was Halsoft which turned into a pay-to-use program, and Voodoo, but neither ever regained the original resident base of VP.
ReplyDeleteSo... the point is, it all depends on LL accounting, and goals. My guess is no one on this blog is privy to that info, nor will you be. If you have friends in SL enjoy them while you can, and make sure you have backup ways of communication in the event of a change. Complaints about these specific features is only upsetting (you) Users. Get a grip and deal. This too shall pass! That's (Second) Life!
1oldavatar said…
ReplyDelete»So... the point is, it all depends on LL accounting, and goals. My guess is no one on this blog is privy to that info, nor will you be. If you have friends in SL enjoy them while you can, and make sure you have backup ways of communication in the event of a change. Complaints about these specific features is only upsetting (you) Users. Get a grip and deal. This too shall pass! That's (Second) Life!«
All very well said, but I think Linden Lab did something they did not intend at all: They have roused sleeping dogs.
As far as I know Linden Lab don’t publish any figures or annual reports because as a privately-held company they don’t have to, if I get that right. But I believe it is a fair assumption that if people stop renting land and deliberately return to the status of a beach bum, it might hit Linden Lab where it hurts most – in the purse. I can only speak for myself, of course, but the fun in owning land is not having it but setting it up. After that it gets stale – and stays costly. i’m still paying 11,900 L$ per month for about 8,000 sqm which is a lot of sugar compared to other grids, and I’m wondering where the value-for-money is here. I’ve been considering to stop this because I more and more feel like an idiot spending about 50 US$ per month for something I don’t really use. Presently it pretty much looks as if current developments may just push me over the brink and make me stop giving that money away, that is buying L$ to pay my tiers with. Current developments may also push me to seriously considering to migrate to another grid, but I haven’t really explored these alternatives enough to form a final opinion yet. But as of now I don’t have the impression that this is not promising. Or maybe my final conclusion will be that I’ve had enough of all this after five years on Second Life.
The point is that Linden Lab own the backend which often enough does not run as smoothly as a user could wish for, and they own a frontend which many people don’t care to use. Beside that they own nothing much. They depend on user-generated content which they cannot control. Linden Lab’s customers don’t buy a game-software package, and that was that. They are in truth subscribers which have to renew their subscription time and again and thus Linden Lab are obliged to make a renewal worthwhile time and again.
What with staying in touch with Second Life friends through other channels: Many people are doing it already through Skype or Facebook, for example, and as far as I can see it’s those people who are really avid players.
It will be interesting to watch if the whole matter gains enough momentum to turn occasional grumpiness into a silent mutiny at a larger scale, with a considerable number of people simply walking out on Second Life, heading for greener pastures.
Perhaps it's time to do some real investigation about the 'greener pastures', but aside from programs by Sony, and EQ I have yet to see anything with a Poser av or better that I'd be willing to try. That was the downside in AW, they did not offer Poser avatars, and when users saw (and heard from friends)Poser was offered in SL they ran for the door (after constant {losing} battles with AWCorp over program costs and features). I'm not a typical SL user though, because building was and remains the only reason I come to 3D. Although build features are weak by comparison in SL, and seem to be going downhill all the time. I've been online almost 15 years now, and when I say I am jaded and beyond interested in the drama that's a major understatement. If they remove the Windlight settings that will do it for me. If I want to (virtually) live under a bright sky I can go back to AW and own a world the size of 20 sims for the same price. I agree, it will be interesting. But it always is, for better or worse! p.s. If you find a greener pasture let me know : )~
ReplyDeleteI take it that I’m too clueless still to get perfectly what you mean — I’m one of the woken dogs, still yawning and trying to get a clear picture. Opinion forming as work in progress, so to say.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I understand after a quick glance on the net Poser is an application to create animations with. I should think that all the grids which are based on OpenSimulator and thus on Second Life should support this, so I don’t see any problem here for you to get what you want. I’ve seen at least two animation vendors I’ve known on Second Life on Avination and InWorldz, for example.
The greener pastures stuff will depend a good deal on what the Second Life TPV devs are going to do. If they make an effort and speedily implement full interoperability with major other grids into their viewers, things would become much easier for their existing users who certainly would like to continue running the viewer they are used to (I, for one, see myself as a Firestorm user first, then as a Second Life user). As to my knowledge Imprudence is somewhat ahead of the rest in terms of interoperability. I hope the respective dev crews are going to talk to each other and to the owners of grids they would fancy to work with. I boldly assume there are some woken dogs there, too.
I think and hope that the next three months or so are going to be very stimulating.
(P.S.: I don’t quite understand your trouble what with the Windlight settings — afaics you can totally disable this by unticking the top checkbox on the Firestorm prefs > Firestorm > Windlight tab: »Automatically change environment to use region/parcel settings«. And you can disable WIndlight separately as well.)
Do the math:
ReplyDelete25,000000 residents (many are alts of course)
185 posts in this blog.
Linden won't really give a diddly what a few people think and in fact, they may be thinking, good riddens.
Good riddance or not, I personally don’t greatly care because I only think, speak and act for myself. But I don’t find I’m special. Anyway, people have been seen tripping over what they thought were trifles. And they were sure they had done their math.
ReplyDeleteI find this article of March 2 is quite interesting:
ReplyDelete»Bad Sign: Linden Lab to No Longer Publish SL User Stats«
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2012/03/bad-sign-linden-lab-to-no-longer-publish-sl-user-stats.html
This is interesting, too:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Linden-Lab-RVW1352577.htm
Raymond, I won't judge if this is fake or not but all those reviews look very familiar from my own experience within a dying company, I've left for good. One of the older cons gave me a laugh tho. It says: "*The "love machine" is mainly a popularity contest that pays money."
ReplyDeleteThanks for pointing at it. Very interesting nevertheless.
For me forming an opinion on Second Life and Linden Lab’s policies is very much like putting a jigsaw puzzle together, the bits being chunks of information I can find on the net.
ReplyDeleteIf that ex-Linden statement is a fake, then it’s fairly well done. The not properly working top-down/down-top communication is a widely spread problem in the corporate world and rings a lot of bells here.
To me that statement is the more credible because it somewhat fits well into the picture I have as of now. I think Linden Lab’s new Third Party Viewer Policy is a sign of weakness and desperation, not of strength. Instead of saying »Okey, we’ll be better than the TPVs and outsmart them what with quality and feature-richness, and we will go to any length to get there« they just simply tell the TPVs »You are not allowed to be better than we«, poorly masked by some trite marketing mumbo-jumbo. And that with a viewer marketshare which is not far from being farcical. I’m much afraid that this attitude is no solution to the problem Linden Lab are having with their viewer or with their stubborn users, for that matter, it’s part of the problem. Looks to me like they were just burying their heads in the sand and seem to earnestly think they can get away with it in the long run. As soon as there will be some serious competition in the grid market (whenever that might be, no idea), this »strategy« might turn out to be a dead-end.
In this context this article might be of interest as well: http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2012/02/opensim-exceeds-second-life-private-regions/
It is very informative post,
ReplyDeleteFull Color Name Tags
Thanks!!!