Tuesday, 20 September 2011
What's this rumor about Phoenix Viewer getting mesh?
Some time ago I told you that future phoenix releases would be maintenance only, no new major features. In that same sentence we also promised you we would try to keep it alive and maintain it until it's dying day. I told you all that Mesh would be the end all for Phoenix because v1 viewers simply cannot support mesh and that as mesh becomes popular, v1 viewers will slowly become visually broken. During that time it seemed extremely unlikely that a v1 viewer could accomplish back porting mesh and making it work because this would require pulling the entire render engine from v2 code base into v1, Quite literally hundreds of thousands of lines of code.
It's comparable to taking a diesel engine from a school bus and fitting it into a ford pinto.. and then making it work properly. No small task.. in fact it's a monumental task and was not one I was willing to dedicate our time too, especially when we have Firestorm. It would take months and months of 100% dedication to make it happen and there was always the question of if it could even be done.
Many of you have probably heard of a resident in SL here named Henri Beauchamp, he is the developer of the Cool VL Viewer. Henri is a very smart guy.. he's also very dedicated to Viewer 1. He has ALSO spent months and months of time backporting the v2 render engine into his viewer AND providing patches for this work to the public. He has successfully backported mesh into his Cool VL viewer and released it.
Ansariel Hiller from our dev team has been not only keeping a close eye on Henri's work, but she's been pulling Henri's patches into her local Phoenix repository. This morning, we merged her repository to ours, and to answer the rumor... phoenix WILL have mesh support.
I want to make a few things clear, not the least of which.. Henri is the only reason this has been made possible. Essentially phoenix Mesh release will be little more than a piggy back on his work, leeching from him... and he deserves huge amounts of credit for making this possible. If you see him in world and appreciate the work he has done, please thank him.
Another thing I want to make clear, which will not make me popular here... I was not in favor of adding mesh into phoenix, for a number of reasons.
Firstly, I don't want you all thinking we've changed our focus back on phoenix, truth is we haven't. Ansariel handled all the work of pulling henri's work into phoenix, LGG has helped. Aside from Tonya and Tech fixing some of the bugs.. Thats it.. essentially we've only had two developers working on this, and there are no plans to increase development on phoenix beyond that. However, mesh in phoenix will accomplish two things. It will complete adoption of mesh in SL, which is pretty cool actually. But equally important, it will also fulfill our promise to keep phoenix going until it's dying day.
Secondly, Make no mistake.. V1 is still on it's deathbed. Consider this.. it took over 9 months to get mesh to work in a v1 viewer.. it took us just over 2 weeks to merge mesh into Firestorm once we started the merge. This will be the pattern with all new things LL releases, making it work in Firestorm or a v2 based viewer will be far easier to adopt faster than making it work on a v1. Maintaining v1 long term is just not being realistic. But for now.. you will get phoenix with mesh as soon as it's passed QA and is ready. No date on this yet.
Speaking of QA, don't expect phoenix to be just like the last release only now it has mesh support. This work effectively makes Phoenix a Ford Pinto with a deisel engine from a school bus duct taped into it. Not only will it have all the existing mesh related bugs, but it will have plenty of it's own bugs specific to having a diesel engine in a Ford Pinto. It will have a negative effect on crash rates no doubt, will be a performance drop for some, an increase for others. It will not be perfect, as it is not designed to support mesh.
It will also require an SSE2 capable computer to run it just like Firestorm and LL v2/v3 does. Because of the SSE2 issue, those of you who's computers are so old that they don't support SSE2, seriously.. you need to upgrade your computer. Really...
But for you, we will also release a non mesh phoenix update with the latest features and fixes. This will be your last phoenix release you can use until you upgrade your computer. We will release phoe mesh and phoe without mesh at the same time.
Also, RLVa will be updated in this next phoenix release.. on the insistance of Kitty Barnett. You will have only her to thank for that, as RLVa update was another thing I was not in favor of. My job is to ensure we stay focused on the future. Phoenix isn't it, Firestorm is. I wasn't in favor of spending Kitty's valuable time on a dying viewer when her time can be much better served on the future of viewers.
Mesh upload capability is also under development and making some promising advancements thanks to Nicky Dasmijn.
So this will extend that shelf life for the Phoenix Viewer a little bit longer, but not forever. Enjoy it while you have it, and be sure to thank Henri.
Jessica Lyon
Project Manager
The Phoenix Viewer Project, Inc
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Thank you Jessica :)
ReplyDeleteNot for Phoenix - Mesh, but for your down to earth honesty.
Although phoenix - mesh sounds good, I just hope that people do not peeper the support group with moans & groans and put our mentors off side.
sighs.... peeper should have read "pepper"
ReplyDeleteSorry :)
Thank you Jesica.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I don't care about that new mesh fashion and won't use this update I am sure many people will be greatful.
My teammates have no doubt bugged you a lot, but we still *CANNOT* switch to Firestorm until Firestorm has an LSL preprocessor.
ReplyDeleteWe can't afford to go back to not having such rudimentary programming features as libraries.
:\
The future? Firestorm is still in beta!
ReplyDeleteWhether anyone wants mesh or not the reality is mesh will spread across the grid just like sculpties and prim hair did and very soon everyone will have to have a viewer that renders mesh to see the world correctly. Start saving for your computer upgrade, we'll all be needing better machines.
ReplyDeleteGreat work by the dev team ... let's keep those viewer updates coming!
I chuckled a bit when you're trying to reminds us that you're not supporting Phoenix anymore.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you shouldn't have called it "Phoenix" in the first place. ;)
it's going to be with us for long time, no doubt about it.
So the the V2 render engine in V1 is like trying to put a bus engine in a ford pinto. Welllllll....
ReplyDeleteThe Firestorm team has been working even longer on making the V2 UI not suck than it took one person to port Mesh to V1. And guess what? The firestorm UI still sucks now and you can work on it for another year and it will STILL suck then. There is no amount of lipstick that will make that pig of a UI beautiful.
But I get it. You have made an investment - time, energy, and pride - in trying to make V2 not suck. I hate to break it to you - it's not possible. The "suckage" that is the V2 UI is throughout the entire viewer - nothing was left in a usable form. What you are attempting to do is port the V1 UI on top of V2 and that is MUCH harder than it should be - as you have found out. In fact, it is so much harder that it's an unrealistic task.
The exact same logic you use to say that it's not feasible to maintain a V1 viewer also applies to firestorm - trying to maintain (nevermind being able to achieve in the first place) a usable UI while LL keeps breaking it further with their changes will be a Herculean task that not even an entire team can achieve.
I still urge you to give up on the abortion that LL released onto the world that is V2 and retrofit V2 back-end features into Phoenix.
It'd of been allot easier if you'd of made a version of firestorm that mimicked V1's Exact Interface with the option to add V2 features.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like a couple of the features promised for the next Firestorm release will tip the Phoenix/Firestorm balance for me, but the graphics are currently horribly slow for every Mesh Viewer but one. Cool VL Viewer, for me, matches Phoenix for frame rate, somewhere between three and four times the frame rate of Viewer 3, whether Mesh is in the scene or not.
ReplyDeleteFirestorm is giving me better numbers than Viewer 3, but only around 50% better.
If Phoenix+Mesh gives me the frame rate advantage that Cool VL Viewer gives me, it's going to be hard for me to justify using Firestorm.
Hello,
ReplyDeleteI agree 100% with Sharie.
You should consider seriously dropping firestorm, and use those valuable resources in making Phoenix better.
Everything based on v2 is terrible, because it was a huge mistake from the very beginning.
I understand that is a very hard decision to make as you have spent a lot of time and resources on it, but... don't be like LL, accept that you made a mistake, please, and improve phoenix.
Long live Phonix... well, it is called 'phoenix' for a reason :)
Thank you very much to all Phoenix developers and Henri Beauchamp too.
MJ
PD: I don't know anything about school buses and ford pintos, so, that meant nothing to me^^
Why is it everyone is bad mouthing Firestorm, has no one realised what Jessica said to adapt Phoenix with v2 code would take a great deal of time and resources,
ReplyDeleteYou all need to stop living in the past and get with it the future is upon us and as much as you love your V1 interface etc its going the way of the dinosaurs, i applaude jessica and her team for.all the hard.work that they have put in getting firestorm out there and all you phoenix lovers should be grateful that that they have even given phoenix a new.lease of life and be thanking them not.bitching about dropping firestorm somethings have to die to make way for new.things i.hope when its phoenix's time to go you will all allow it.to.go in peace and not bitch and whine, let it flie high and appreciate it whiile you still have it love t for what it is not for what you wish it were.
(sorry for the poor punctuation and random full stops typing from a phone isn't easy lol)
once more a huge thankyou to Jessica and the Phoenix/Firestorm team for making two amazing viewers.
I don't want changing for V2, and a lot off user use phoenix V1 because for us the best!
ReplyDeleteMy goodness, why can't we all realize that V2 is HERE and it is not going away. V1 is going to become as obsolete as Windows 95 at some point, and a server change will probably (I'm guessing) break V1. Yes, V2's UI stinks and we're going to have to learn to use it. Please please please do not waste resources refitting stuff to V1.
ReplyDeleteThis is good news! An important thing to realize though is that the average resident really doesn't care what a viewer is based on or even know the difference. Viewer 1, viewer 2...doesn't matter, they just want something familiar that doesn't maul the eyes like viewer 2.0+ UIs do.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if anyone here has given FSv3 a try. I mean not just 5 minutes. It took me about 5 minutes to change some settings and log in with the Phoenix mode. Another 5 minutes to find out where to find what. And guess what? I have my FSv3 90% looking like my Phoenix.
ReplyDeleteFSv3 has even more to offer than Phoenix, cool stuff btw! I like that the Link/Unlink buttons are not in the Object tab anymore, which speeds up my building process (I hate my keyboard ;)) ... For the rest of the UI you just need one or two days to get used to it.
Sure, FSv3 is not ready for production use. It has some annoying bugs still, but when it goes final it will be the best viewer I have seen so far. I love it!
I hate LL's v2/3, seriously!
I don't know what SSE2 means, but I can fully agree that having a newer computer, especially having a graphics card for US$60+ is making SL a lot more fun ;)
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ReplyDeleteI think both focusing on Firestorm as the future and making it better, and ALSO for now backporting features from the V3 viewers into Phoenix till Firestorm has caught up on usability and gotten the bugs worked out of it, is the right approach. Once Firestorm is at a more mature place, which is likely to take some time, then of course it will no longer make sense to keep putting time and energy towards Phoenix.
ReplyDeleteI've been using Firestorm v3 since its release.. I was getting tired of looking at people looking stupid wearing odd shapes and proclaiming to the world they look fantastic... Granted, what I have seen of mesh since I have been able to see it still does not impress me...
ReplyDeleteI happen to like Firestorm.. its as close to a v1 UI as you're gonna get in a v2 viewer. Sure I am missing some of my features from Phoenix, but I am sure the devs are working on bringing everything that was Phoenix to Firestorm, and I will be quite pleased when they do.
You have a happy customer here, keep up the good work.
We're tending to look at this from the POV of techie enthusiasts. We need to remember that the average SL user doesn't want to learn a new UI ever time there's a need for a new viewer and will cling to the old one for that reason. It's like buying a new car. While the controls may not be in exactly the same spot, they're still pretty much what you were used to, and the new car doesn't have the gas pedal on the left, brake on the right, radio in the door and light switches in the glove box. Similarly, people don't want to spend their time trying to figure where their inventory is hidden, how do they send an IM, or where are the windlight settings now? That's one of the things that hurt V2, and it's going to be an obstacle for each new viewer that comes along with everything in the UI rearranged, moved and hidden.
ReplyDeleteSheri: "I still urge you to give up on the abortion that LL released onto the world that is V2 and retrofit V2 back-end features into Phoenix."
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with Sheri and VJ. This isn't a matter of "living in the past" as some claim. This is a matter of Viewer 2/3 sucking like a Kirby.
I'm not one of those who cling to V1. I was all for the concept of V2-- until LL mucked it up (as was predicted they would do). As a viewer, V2 just plain stinks... and trying to imitate a viewer that stinks just because LL has a "we say so" attitude-- is throwing good effort after obviously bad.
Now, if V2 had more of a V1 interface... if it offered the tools we need... if it actually WORKED... I'd be all for V2. I agree the V1 interface needed upgrading. That didn't mean it needed thrown out the window and an abomination put in its place.
I'm not saying "hang on to the V1 system". I'm saying: Don't follow Linden Lab's blatant stupidity. Do better. If you want to go with V2 code... make the UI usable and valuable. Make sure it works. Don't repeat the same incompetent blunders LL foisted on its grid.
Point made: Second Life is stagnating and even declining in popularity... and has been since October 2008. There are reasons for that-- and I believe V2 to be a significant one of those reasons. So if we're going to go with the V2 concept-- at least change it so that it's workable, usable, and valuable.
In the meantime, I'm glad to hear there are no plans to trash Phoenix. Because frankly, I'll do totally without mesh before I migrate to V2... and if LL ever forces V2 exclusively on the grid... I'm outta there. It's just that bad. If Firestorm is to succeed and be widely accepted... it's going to have to be far, far better than vanilla V2.
Thanks for listening. Thanks for all your hard work. We do appreciate it. Please realize however, that when V2 was released 88% of the population rejected it in the most vehement terms. Please don't throw good effort after bad. If we're gonna go with the V2 platform... do it right. Which pretty much means ignore the way LL did it... and redesign the UI from the ground up. : )
You people that want the viewer 1 UI need to get used to the fact that technology changes. And yes, you are clinging to the past. You are only not using firestorm because you think they UI is exactly like v2, when its not. But then again I have used both viewer2/3 and firestorm extensively. Most of you haters likely have not used viewer 2 or 3 or firestorm for more than 5 minutes and decided you hated it because it wasn't exactly like viewer 1. Guys, as someone that used viewer 1 myself: its not that great. Stop pretending it was great, because everyone was griping about it a lot before viewer 2 came out, which is why LL rushed viewer 2 out in the first place. And stop trying to speak for everyone. Not everyone hates v2 or firestorm. I like firestorm, but unlike most of you haters i have actually used it, not for minutes, but weeks. Viewer 2/3 isnt that bad either anymore (insert shock and horror here), though I prefer firestorm. Phoenix is a dying viewer, by this time next year I doubt they will be developing phoenix anymore, better to move on to firestorm and get used to it now.
ReplyDeleteYou say that people with older computers need to upgrade. That's easier said than done, what with the U.S. real unemployment rate alone being somewhere around 22-24% (when you factor in all those jobless people who are no longer counted and the severely underemployed).
ReplyDeleteI am glad you are finally realizing that it is not only possible but desirable to bring mesh to Phoenix rather than go through the almost impossible task of trying to tweak the far inferior V2. But don't you think you're insulting people who through no fault of their own must stay on older computers?
Phoenix will keep rising from the ashes until there is something really better. Telling people they are wrong to want what they want doesn't help anything. Helping to make Firestorm better will help.
ReplyDeleteIm having a problem relogging back into firestorm. it doesnt like me. I was on it one day and now it wont let me back on it. so i have been using my phoenix viewer til i am able to log on again. it reminds me of the slv2 when i was on it so its not too much of a difference to me. i just hope i am able to log onto it. any suggestions? just IM me Gabriella Darkwyr if im not online send me a notecard cuz my messages get capped. please help me lol thans!!
ReplyDeleteThe ONLY thing I still dislike about Firestorm is that it ALWAYS crashes\\freezes my linux box. Every, single, time I run it. At first I didn't want to believe it, but the issue remains consistent no matter what I do.
ReplyDelete[insert list of usual first- and second-tier tech support suggestions here] -- I've tried all of those.
This is literally the only issue I have with Firestorm and is actually the only reason I don't use it. I don't much enjoy running a viewer that would cause me to hard-reset my system every time I run it; at seemingly random times.
This blog isn't tech support so I'm not going to list system specs or whatever beyond admitting that I'm one of THOSE people who have an ATi card on a linux box. I just wanted to put this quasi-rant somewhere, really. I'll just sit back and hope the issue gets fixed, as I can't possibly be the only one in my situation with this issue.
Incidentally I must agree with Wolfenstein Sequoia as I am among those unemployed. Thankfully though, my ageing box even supports SSE3. So at least I'm not out of the game yet--as it were.
Using Phoenix at this point is like using Windows 2000. You're using old technology, and whether you like the GUI as much or not, Firestorm actually has a Phoenix UI mode in it now, but I doubt any of you noticed because nobody ever seems to try to be fair about anything, they just cling to opinions. Old opinions.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if Firestorm is running slow for you, a big part of it is probably your computer, I've learned in playing SL that some people just simply don't have the understanding that technology ages. Just because your computer plays Minecraft doesn't mean it can play Crysis.
Additionally, if ANY of you are sticking to non-mesh viewers because your computers don't have SSE2 support... SSE2 is 2001 technology. For God's sake, get a new computer already! It's like riding a bike in NASCAR race.
@ Karol: Fasion with use the uprade to mesh due to how much more detail you can use whilst using mesh sculpties.
ReplyDeleteWith everything comes the death of a old thing and in with the new, like it or not you all are going to have to change.
And anyone with low budget computers that don't support SSE2 are just going to have to upgrade, or not play.
All of you saying we need to move on from the V1 interface, first of all I want to tell you to zip it. A lot of us began SL on V1 and enjoy it because of its simplicity and ease of use, those of us that want to stay with a V1 interface find it far too hard to adapt to V2. Why? Because its a mess, its clunky, its cluttered, its useless, and LL did whatever it felt like breaking something that actually worked. Everytime I try out a V2 viewer I get frustrated with it, simply because I can't adapt to it and its far too complicated for me. Also the slowness of it, the lag, the fact the graphics never load properly. Finally if we can have mesh with a V1 interface then I say we should have that, if Phoenix fails altogether there is always Singularity and apparently Cool VL :)
ReplyDeleteIf Cool VL Viewer, a V1 based Viewer with a V1 User Interface can support mesh...and Phoenix is able to use this code to make use of mesh...
ReplyDelete...doesn't that mean that Firestorm can have a V1 User Interface?
All in all, thank you Henri Beauchamp! A true Champ to all us V2 viewer haters! ;)
@Blueray Darkes: to be bluntly honest, no, we will not zip it. Many of us are getting SICK AND TIRED of listening to you people that hate viewer 2 go on and on and on and on about how much you hate it. we know already! Then when anyone tries to make v2 any better, like firestorm, or kirstens or whatever, you whine and cry because its not exactly like viewer 1. Get the F**k over it! Viewer 2 or 3 is not going away. Again, because y'all are deaf it seems: VIEWER 2 IS NOT GOING AWAY!
ReplyDeleteI have been in SL since it was 1.20. It wasn't great then, and people were complaining about how LL viewers were a mess, clunky, its cluttered, useless, laggy, complicated, nothing would load, etc etc. Thats why they rushed out viewer 2 in the first place, because people wouldnt shut up about how AWEFUL viewer 1.23 was! But now miraculously its the greatest viewer ever because its what YOU are used to.
If you havent used a V2 based viewer for more than a day at a time, then YOU zip it. I have used BOTH phoenix and firestorm: v1 and v2/v3. Guess what? v2/v3 isn't that bad now! The UI needs to be made better, but its not any worse than v1 in any other area. If you cant adapt to a new viewer or new technology, thats your problem. Everyone else shouldnt have to suffer because you are too lazy or stupid to learn something new. As for slowness and lag, thats BS. V2 based viewers lag less than v1 based viewers bar none, to pretty much everyone ive talked to that has actually used both.
In short: be glad you are getting mesh, but they are focusing on firestorm as they should be doing.
I like that "isn't that bad" part. Meaning it's still not as good as V1. Which it isn't...and I have tried using v2/v3 for weeks on end.
ReplyDeleteIt's full of bloat and waste.
Either way, it's good to see mesh incorporating into Phoenix. Because once you let v1 die...many of us will either quit altogether or move on to Cool or Astra or another v1 viewer with devs that are capable of doing all the things we've been told are incapable.
v2/v3 wouldn't be so bad...if it had a v1 interface. v1 followed K.I.S.S.; v2/v3 just punches it in the mouth. -.-
@anonymous: No, its just as good as viewer one, you just have to get used to it. Firestorm is as easy to use as phoenix. I've been using firestorm for months on end as my primary viewer. When I say its not that bad, I mean all the moaning and whining is not justified, not that v1 is any better, because its not.
ReplyDeleteV1 feels like a childs toy interface, it has its own unique forms of clutter and waste that you are just used to because you have used it for so long. That does not make it better though.
And v1 will eventually die, its not a question if IF v1 will die its a question of WHEN. Honestly i hope some do leave, less whining about new technology they arent willing to use and want to hold everyone back because they cant bother learning something new.
v2 interface is not the greatest ever, but the v1 interface is no better. its just you are used to it so its not as scary to you, but familiarity does not equal superiority. Viewer one is anything but simple, and while V2 interface can be improved, it is not that hard to learn as it is, just people refuse to
This Henri guy should be fully ashamed of himself for his role in keeping a dying viewer alive. LET IT DIE, my god.
ReplyDeleteI swear the unwillingness to switch to firestorm is like a mental illness, may I suggest you seek help as soon as possible?
@ Maggie Bluxome
ReplyDeleteFirestorm with a V1 interface is also called Phoenix with mesh rendering. It's the same exact thing. You can't just put the V1 interface on the V2 backend, you need to bring the backend along with the UI or you've got a huge mess. Since practically all that's in the viewer is UI/backend and rendering engine, Firestorm rendering with Phoenix interface is the same as Phoenix interface with Firestorm rendering.
Having read the blog I wonder if the rushed inport of mesh to Firestorm was not just to keep Pheonix from getting out with it first?
ReplyDeleteI have both Pheonix and Firestorm on my computer and like both to a point, but like most I prefer Pheonix by Far. It is the better Viewer and the number one viewer in Second life if I remember right. Pheonix is dead only if you can convince us (its users) and your development team to abandon it! I believe like many of the Pheonix/Firestorm fans that we would be better served if you pulled in a few more team members and put together too teams, One team would continue the development of the pheonix viewer that Jessica Lyon would like to see ended and the other team would continue the development of the Firestorm Viewer which does hold so much hope for the future. Sadly however that future is not here yet the Firestorm viewer is still in beta and not ready for primetime(even as poplar as it is becoming), and now with mesh it is defintely not ready for primetime, which could be a year or more away. I do believe that there are more then enough people and resources to do both and in doing so keep all of us happy!
@ Wolfenstien
ReplyDeleteGet a grip, she already made it clear that they are not supporting phoenix anymore than they stated at the release of firestorm. This is mearly a bandaid to keep the slow learners happy for a while.
If you can't afford to upgrade from decade old technology then I think it's common sense that you shouldn't be on SL at all, unless of course you're on welfare and have no interest in finding real work.
I'm bored, so joining the "viewer wars" fray. Yes, out of boredom. People clutter this blog with unnecessary dribble and banter anyway, so wheee:
ReplyDeleteWhy do people dislike the V2 interface? Simple:
The best interface is a consistent one. It's like going to the grocer every other day to find out the store owner has switched everything you usually look for into different aisles; oft-times just when you got into a habit of directly going to where you know they were. Wouldn't that drive you a bit nuts after a while?
All of you telling us old-style fans to quit whining: Just you wait. Stick around SL long enough, LL will do the same to you. This is hardly the first time the viewer interface has had a drastic change, and it won't be the last. One day you lot will find yourselves complaining, and the next generation after you will tell you to shush.
Myself? Par for the course. Interface changes happen all the time, with all software--even Operating Systems. Some more drastic than others. Fact remains; people (including myself) complain because ease-of-use finds a nice home in consistency. Without consistency, you're going to get confused. Over, and over again.
As for the lag? I haven't noticed it. Even on my ageing machine, V2 based viewers are sometimes even faster than V1 code. The only issue I usually have with LL-released viewers is the lack of C-Ares library in their auto-builds. That's typically the only V2-specific lag I get.
As for the touch of class-warfare going on: Rich people are not the only people who deserve good things. Those of you with your elitist "upgrade or gtfo" attitude are the ones who make this world (virtual or no) a sad place to live in. Just because someone cannot financially afford to (continue to) do something, doesn't mean they should be prohibited from doing it. (Now watch, someone's gonna say I'm condoning or endorsing theft. Lulz)
That's just my L$2. For great justice--no, boredom.
Did anyone doubt thats will happen? :)
ReplyDeleteI understand fully and it does seem to make perfect sense to focus on FireStorm. But I just want to give some feedback about the latest firestorm that I tried. FireStorm seemed to be extremely slow. For example, clicking a checkbox took seconds wile phoenix responds instantaneously (note that this is just an example, not that this is the only area that is slow). Is this an issue in the V2 code base that FireStorm adopts or a FireStorm issue? I hope it's the latter so that FireStorm team can address or I may need to consider if SL is still good for me.
ReplyDeleteThanks for all the efforts putting in the project and give us a great viewer.
I understand fully and it does seem to make perfect sense to focus on FireStorm. But I just want to give some feedback about the latest firestorm that I tried. FireStorm seemed to be extremely slow. For example, clicking a checkbox took seconds wile phoenix responds instantaneously (note that this is just an example, not that this is the only area that is slow). Is this an issue in the V2 code base that FireStorm adopts or a FireStorm issue? I hope it's the latter so that FireStorm team can address or I may need to consider if SL is still good for me.
ReplyDeleteThanks for all the efforts putting in the project and give us a great viewer.
Like everyone else moaning on here i too was to blind to see the benefits of Firestorm
ReplyDeleteI used the first release for 2 weeks and was actually starting to like it very much...
There is a BUT :/
It then crashed on me during a DJ set and took the machine with it!!
Making me look an idiot in front of 45 clubbers grrr
after that Firestorm would run at all... i went to long tasks to get it to work again only for it to crash again.
And the new Mesh beta is just the same.
So forget GUI and how it looks/feels and what gadgets does it have... First and foremost it must be STABLE!!
Phoenix is as solid as a rock and hasn't crashed for months.
So as someone who works in front of large crowds i need this stability and reliability more that anything else.
If Firestorm isn't better on next release im afraid the is only 1 way for me and that's LL V3
As long as Firestorm is in beta we only have Phoenix. Now that we have other viewers to choose from if Phoenix stops bring developed, and Firestorm is still buggy and crashing ms every 10 minutes I will simply choose another viewer that works or keep using Phoenix. There is a big push back to mesh. Like it or not. We all just want a stable viewer that have the functionality we have on Phoenix. And I got a brand new pc and Firestorm still crashes, loads slow and many other issues. I will wait until a proper release that is stable first. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It's your choice. Choose what us best for you. No matter what Jessica Lyons or others do, there will be many other talented developers out there keeping this alive. Henri and others have proven this. Congrats Henri and every other developer out there for their efforts in supporting the most stable viewer we have. As long as their are people developing for this platform we can continue onward without being left behind.
ReplyDeleteAfter four years of using v1 style interfaces, starting with the official LL Viewer and then on to Emerald and then on to Phoenix I started using Firestorm around four weeks ago. And it was awkward for me at first getting used to the new UI. But I took the time to watch Jessica's tutorials as well as attending Firestorm classes at Junkyard University and them patiently apply what I had learned. And while changing four years worth of habits has not always been easy, I've come to the point where I am preferring Firestorm over Phoenix.
ReplyDeleteI know some are having trouble with it running on their computers and I do hope that those issues get fixed. But some of you leave me with the impression that you didn't even seek help. I sought it and I got it.
For those of you who sought help and still have problems, I applaud you and hope those problems get fixed.
What I do know for me is that in my day by day puttering around in SL, that I love Firestorm now. Rez time has improved 10 to 20% (I timed it to make sure I wasn't imagining things), I get around 10 to 15 FPS faster than with Phoenix, I have had NO inventory loading issues and even my teleports have been faster and I have been having far less trouble with Lag! So outside of my getting used to the new UI, my enjoyment of Second Life has increased greatly.
I haven't upgraded to the 3.0 viewer yet. I decided to hold off until it was reported that some of the bugs had been fixed. Just my personal choice. So far it hasn't been a problem for me. I have yet to see anyone walking around carrying a doughnut. When I start seeing doughnuts all the time I will make the switch.
I do want to put out a word of caution to the ladies here regarding mesh. If you are wearing a mesh dress, make sure you are wearing a bra or some kind of undershirt. Otherwise you may appear like a topless (naked) girl carrying around a doughnut to someone who is not using a mesh enabled viewer. ( http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Why-do-meshes-have-to-render-for-non-compliant-viewers-So/m-p/1101801#M7011 ) Unless of course appearing naked is not an issue for you.
On a final note, I personally have no interest in engaging in a 'Viewer War' with anybody. My attitude is just like SL is 'Your World, Your Imagination,' so also it is 'Your World, Your Choice Of Viewers.'
My thanks to all the Firestorm/Phoenix Devs for all your work.
Don't let the ungrateful grate you!
Peace
It is really sad to see valuable talent wasted. Too hard to move on from V1? Pleeeease. A special version for computers without SSE2 support? Sigh. Slowing down Firestorm for that? So sad.
ReplyDeleteI know you don't like the idea of mesh in V1 but frankly Jessica as outstanding a job as the team has done fixing the Firestorm viewer up and making it about 500% superior to the LL viewer.
ReplyDeleteI still do not like the setup, design or feel of ANY V2-3 viewer. It would take some major redesigns of the entire viewer interface to fix it and for me and a lot of others that feel the same way this is news that couldn't be better to hear.
I am glad you are doing this regardless of who actually did the work and definatly want to give kudos to Henry as well for his work.
I love the work being done on Firestorm, however the one glaring issue that keeps me from adopting it completely is the horrendous framerates I get with Beta 3. I place blame for that squarely on Linden Lab's shoulders however as they give the codebase to work with. Until I can get better than 2-3 fps (With Beta 2 and Phoenix I can get 25-35), I welcome and will keep using Viewer 1 whether it be Phoenix, or the other mesh enabled v1 variants.
ReplyDeleteTo read the comments here, you'd think you were all paying customers. These are volunteers working for free to give you something for free and they have done a lot to appease you.
ReplyDeleteYou're not entitled to anything other than whatever viewer the Lindens feel like supporting. If you want to complain to them about their sucky viewer, maybe you have a right. You should be thanking these people for doing what they've done.
And its already been said but its worth saying again, get used to change. You've had a long long time to practice with the new viewer while still having the old viewer available when you needed it.
And if you really hate all things V2 that much and want support for V1, why not start using Cool VL Viewer. That guy is apparently immensely dedicated to making V1 continue to work while the Phoenix/Firestorm team has made it clear that they will be moving on. We're not only getting these viewers for free, we're getting multiple choices for free. We're beggars that get to be choosers.
I didn't like Firestorm at first either but once I got used to it, well, there are still some things I'd like to see pulled in but there are a few things that are actually better. The way dialog boxes are handled is better for example. You get your notifications tucked away in a little corner and they stay there until you're ready to look through them. Firestorm has flight assist built right into it so you don't have to waste an attach point on that and you don't lose your ability to fly at high altitudes even temporarily due to an ill advised "Replace Outfit" or detach. Its not all bad and its not that hard to learn.
Remember this dev team isn't forcing this change on you. They're trying to help minimize the pain for you.
Funny how people say something can't be done and some one comes along and does it anyway.
ReplyDelete“Phoenix mode” in Firestorm just must go a lot further to get more adoption. Telling people they are stupid won't win them over.
ReplyDeleteI agree 100% that Kitty could be working on something that isn't going to be dead soon, Firestorm should be a priority to get us out of Beta! All these stubborn folk that won't switch over, firestorm is so much like phoenix and very easy to get used to...at first I was one of the stubborn ones as well and if you can't switch over, I am sorry to hear that xD
ReplyDeleteDOES THE WORD VOLUNTEER DEVELOPERS MEAN ANYTHING TO ANY OF YALL.. i want to see each and everyone of yall try to code a freaking viewer..its not as easy as copy and pasteing..ok...it is a long and tiresome job to code a viewer
ReplyDeletegive these ppl sum credit and stop complaining that Phoenix V1 is going to die...everything in this world dies at sum point...so please give these VOLUNTEERS more credit then half of yall are doing
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ReplyDeletePinto with bus engine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfl-z4TShmM
ReplyDeleteIMHO this pro and con ranting is rather pointless.
ReplyDeleteI myself am still using Phoenix as my bread & cheese viewer just because I find that there are still a good deal of UI inconsistencies in Firestorm (even in Phoenix mode) which I don’t feel like dealing with presently. Not feeling like it meaning that I of course COULD, if I HAD TO. Those UI flaws (as I see them) will be straightened out in the process anyway, I am sure. And, yes, I’m giving my (hopefully constructive) share of feedback through the JIRA channel where I can precisely name what I wish to see altered or added.
I’m using Firestorm (mesh beta now) every now and then to get more and more familiar with it, that is for 2 or 3 hours in one stretch, and so far I haven’t tripped over any major bugs or inconveniences other than the aforementioned UI matters. Only point is that he Firestorm graphics seem to work differently so that I had to play around a little to make Firestorm as fast and good-looking as Phoenix, and that is fairly possible afaics, at least on my Mac (Pro early 2008, nVidia GTX 285, SSD boot-drive).
I take it that those who complain about performance issues have either a hopelessly out-dated computer or didn’t take the pain of adjusting their system properly. If anyone has the bad luck of being forced to use a computer which is older than five years or so, I am amazed that Second Life is running on it at all. If you can’t afford a second-hand PC which is a bit more up-to-date (that is, meeting the current minimum system requirements), I’m summat sorry for you, but that’s it. Accusing Linden Lab of only dishing out to those who have money is certainly going in the wrong direction. They are running a business, not a charity.
One more thing: bashing the Firestorm/Phoenix dev team is irrational, unjust and last but not least a proof of decidedly bad manners (and an astounding lack of understanding, come to that). If there is anyone to blame then it’s the decision-makers at Linden Lab who don’t seem to understand their own product (which they in all probability don’t use much themselves) and the needs and wants of their customers. The top guys at Linden Lab want to have a chunk of the social-networking market that Facebook or G+ are domineering. Hence the intention to make V2 look more web-style (just take a look at the abominable new search) and all that nonsense (as if web-interfaces were anything to brag about, they are clearly not). But Second Life isn’t a social-networking platform, it’s a game, with a lot of liberties to take advantage of, but still a game. Linden Lab made several efforts to acquire new users in that field, but to no much avail, if I read the numbers right. I’ve had the impression for years now that Second Life has been a brilliant idea realized by brilliant people. But those brilliant people seem to have left, and now we have to deal with what we have got. And it’s not the cream of the crop, I fear. »The fish stinks from the head«, as we say in North-Germany. Oh well… Such is Real Life. They will run Second Life into the ground or they won’t.
Benson, your hostility is uncalled for. My computer was made last year, so it is hardly old. My last computer was an 06/07 model, hardly the decade-old dinosaur you seem to think everyone who has problems with Firestorm uses. The attitude on display from you, Jessica Lyon, and others who support V2 is the biggest reason why more people are turning to Cool VL and Singularity, whose development teams are doing what Phoenix developers are only belatedly catching up to. It is not a matter of upgrading to new technology, which is the false argument presented (and to which I responded). Rather, it is a matter of a superior user interface being discarded in favor of one most SL users cannot stand. If you stop to think about the way you are responding, and learn to be polite you might find less hostility being returned to you.
ReplyDeleteOk, first I will ask this. Why all the hostility between v1 and v2 and v3 users? It's all a matter of choice, and what you choose doesn't have to divide you. Relax, everyone. :)
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I think that keeping Phoenix as a functional backup to Firestorm is a good idea, despite Jessica's wishes to more or less abandon it for Firestorm alone. What I mean by that is there are people who cannot use Firestorm, or for whom it causes a drop in performance. Until these things are addressed within Firestorm, I think it's good business to keep Phoenix as up to date as it can be.
Though the work is severe, perhaps what was done with bringing mesh to Phoenix can be done in other cases as well, by collaborating with other client creators to get things done. This way, a little effort can be put forth from many fronts to make things work, rather than the entire team being forced to divert energy and time to something that's being phased out.
I understand that Firestorm is going to eventually reach a point of being the "premiere" client from this group of creators. I also understand that LL is making it hard to keep v1 viewers even slightly viable. But I do believe that having something to fall back on while work is being done on the "main" client is a good idea.
To use Jessica's analogy, "When your main car is in the shop being fixed, it's always good to have a spare one you can drive around." As long as you guys keep Phoenix as functional as possible, people will have the option between the two, and that's nothing but a good thing.
I prefer firestorm to phoenix. I have nothing against phoenix users, seeing as many I know use phoenix. Its just it gets annoying when people complain about how much firestorm sucks on every. single. post. And the bad thing is its readily apparent that most of those that hate it haven't actually used it for any length of time. Then they try to speak for everyone on top of that, saying to stop all v2 viewer development and go back to v1, because THEY like the interface better. So its ok to deny me and others our choice of viewer, but when people say they prefer firestorm and should get used to it, we are "elitists". it works both ways, most of the hatred of v2 based viewers is coming from people that dont use v2 based viewers. it reminds me of mac vs pc flame wars.
ReplyDeleteThank you, thank you, thank you.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately my productivity is greatly decreased with firestorm (even the Phoenixfied version) and now being able to see mesh will absolutely be killer.
Thank you.. Thank you... Thank you.
And thank you Henri, and thank you Astra guy, and thank you Phoenix devs.
Did I say thank you, yet?
I wish Jessica would just put her foot down and yank Phoenix releases and continue on with the far superior Firestorm.
ReplyDeleteLet the oldbies and slow learners move to cool VL, does anyone really care where they go? This isn't competition it's about making a viewer that people enjoy. It's quite clear that plenty of us enjoy firestorm as well as the head producer. :)
@Serith: No, the people who don't like V2/3 aren't "haters". Those who call them haters might check their own attitude. I've been on SL since 2004. I've seen and used every manifestation of viewer from early days onward. You are correct, V1 isn't the greatest product in the world. Pretty much everyone I talk to agrees the V1 interface needed overhauled. But V2/3 was so very much worse it's beyond belief. And NO, Serith, it's not because we only spent 5 minutes trying to use it. I spent HOURS trying to adapt to the new viewer. The reality is this: the viewer stinks, bigtime. The vast majority of the population rejected it in the most vehement terms-- and it wasn't because it was different than V1. It was because A) The interface is incomprehensible in places B) It's buggy as all get-out C) Some vital aspects are totally missing and D) Things that we use and need everyday are hidden in some sink-hole of a UI system that came out of a Wes Craven nightmare.
ReplyDeleteYes, things change. As I told the Lindens long ago: we're not against change. We're against OMG WT?????... change.
Even Linden Lab itself finally admitted that they made a mistake in how they designed the V2 interface and how they presented it to their customers (basically... leaving us totally out of the loop). So I'm sorry, but your post comes across as biased, unfactual... and disrespectful of those who dislike V2/3. I appreciate it's your opinion-- but with all due respect-- that opinion needs a reality check-- and a little more respect for the opinions of those who disagree with you. There are a whole bunch of us out here who dislike v2/3 for one simple reason: it's lousy. I for one was looking forward to a new viewer and gave it every chance in the world. It simply not only didn't live up to expectations... it turned out to be a design nightmare created by people who obviously had no clue about how Second Life works... and how users use the system. That's the simple bottom line.
@Ice God64: I wasn't aware Firestorm had a Phoenix UI mode. In all fairness, I will certainly check in to it... once the creators give us the thumbs up that Firestorm is functioning like they want it to. I've done my "beta test" bit over the years and I'm more into "use what works" now. Thanks for the heads up. : )
ReplyDelete@Benson: "Let the oldbies and slow learners move to cool VL, does anyone really care where they go?"
So in other words Benson, you don't care about what anyone else wants, so long as you get what YOU want, right? Sorry dude, your attitude needs more work than V2. Sorry to be so blunt, but your post is haughty, uncaring and blatantly offensive.
@DJ Shepherd: "As long as Firestorm is in beta we only have Phoenix. Now that we have other viewers to choose from if Phoenix stops bring developed, and Firestorm is still buggy and crashing ms every 10 minutes I will simply choose another viewer that works or keep using Phoenix."
Well-said. I switched to Phoenix becuase the 2 other viewers I tried were extremely unstable. The last viewer I tried crashed an average of 5 times a day. Phoenix hasn't crashed ONCE. To me... that means something. The point is... Phoenix works, and appears to work well. It has mesh. So folks, what is all the hullabaloo over V2/3, Firestorm, etc? Phoenix works.
That doesn't mean we can't go ahead and create something better. I do think it means that any suggestion of trash-canning Phoenix is very ill-thought. I have had several friends tell me that Firestorm feels clunky, slow and crashes. So until that is all fixed and stable like Phoenix... I think any thought of throwing Phoenix to the curb is very premature.
@Perrie: Your comment about ladies appearing naked in some viewers is VERY apropo. Good point. Most folks aren't aware of it... but there are still people using v1.23... Snowglobe, and a whole lotta people using Hippo. Anyone wearing mesh or even 2nd layer clothes without undergarments... will appear totally naked to older viewers. Many people are FORCED to use those viewers because they have older computers. A friend of mine was totally shocked to learn that he (a male, btw) appeared shirtless to 75% of the people around him. We should all be aware of that reality: not everyone is using new viewers, with the new functions.
@Everyone: No need to war over this. Some folks like the V1 interface. Some folks like the V2 interface. Some folks (like me) think somewhere in between would be ideal (ie, V2 functions with an interface that makes sense... and is neither V1 nor V2 but a totally new and viable design... which is what LL should have done in the first place). Personally, I think it is FAR to early for anyone to be talking about scrapping V1 concepts. At least V1 flippin' works for the most part. No matter what people say about the interface, what they like and use etc... they cannot honestly say that V2/3 works well. It obviously does not. When it does... and when it has a decent UI... then we can reasonably talk about trash-canning V1, yes?
Everyone has opinions. It is the diversity of opinions that often help the techs arrive at a newer, better, and more usable product. Someday Firestorm will probably be THE product everyone wants to use. Until that day comes... I think it's good to listen to and respect the opinions of everyone here, put an end to personal bias / attitude, and stop insulting other people just because their opinion disagrees. Guide for life: just because we personally believe something doesn't make it so. The actual truth usually lies somewhere in between the opposite radical opinions.
Dracos: "Ok, first I will ask this. Why all the hostility between v1 and v2 and v3 users? It's all a matter of choice, and what you choose doesn't have to divide you. Relax, everyone. :)"
Exactly. Well-said.
If people use the JIRA to paste crash logs, and to show the bugs they are getting, then maybe the devs would be aware and fix them.
ReplyDeleteIf all the toyota owners crashed their cars due to the accelerator pedel being stuck, but NO ONE ever said anything, then nobody would have ever known there was an issue with them
If you don't tell the developers what issues you having with the viewer, then how are they supposed to fix them?
if your pissed off about things not working, then leave the complaints and the issues in the JIRA, where they are organized and where every issue is looked at.. not just yell at the devs on a blog post reply, and think that is going to help.. because its not
@Wayfinder Wishbringer sa
ReplyDeleteNo, the people who don't like V2/3 aren't "haters". Those who call them haters might check their own attitude.
Yes, many many of the people that don't like v2/v3 ARE haters. They tried it for all of 2 minutes, didnt like it because it wasnt exactly like V1, and rail against it every chance they get. Not all that dislike v2/v3 are haters, but many are. I dont hate viewer 1, but i am sick of people that hate v2/v3 trying to stop all development on those viewers because they personally dislike them. I dont care if they keep developing phoenix, but calling for them to scrap firestorm because it uses v2 interface is nothing but being a hater, plain and simple.
I've been on SL since 2004. I've seen and used every manifestation of viewer from early days onward. You are correct, V1 isn't the greatest product in the world. Pretty much everyone I talk to agrees the V1 interface needed overhauled. But V2/3 was so very much worse it's beyond belief.
I have been in SL since 2007, not as long, but still have been through the whole v1 thing and v2 and now v3. Thing is, I stuck with emerald and later phoenix even when v2 came out. I thought iy sucked as much as everyone else did. But i also continue using it with each update they do, and it has gotten better, much better than it was at 2.0. In quite a few ways it is better than v1. Firestorm is also a great viewer, it being based on v2 doesn't change that.
And NO, Serith, it's not because we only spent 5 minutes trying to use it. I spent HOURS trying to adapt to the new viewer. The reality is this: the viewer stinks, bigtime.
ReplyDeleteIn many cases, yes it is. Most people that hate viewer 2 or 3 have either not used it, not used it very much (the people that used it for 5 minutes and go back to v1) or used it last year when it first came out and think it hasnt changed at all in that time. if you havent used v2 or v3 in the last 3 months your opinion on it is worthless. I switch back and forth between the two Uis regularly because each has advantages for some things, but the strikes against v2/3 viewers are going down a lot.
The vast majority of the population rejected it in the most vehement terms-- and it wasn't because it was different than V1.
But many many did reject it for that exact reason, and many refuse to move to firestorm for that exact reason now so....
It was because A) The interface is incomprehensible in places
As is the v1 interface, you are just used to it so can find your way around it quickly. Use a v2 based viewer for a month and it will be second nature, if you try explaining v2 to a newbie, you will have just as hard a time explaining it as you would viewer 1.
B) It's buggy as all get-out
Bugs are being fixed on v2/3 viewers, they are not being fixed on v1, except by third party devs. In my experience it is no more buggy than v1 was, but thats just my experience. Though most that find it buggy usually either have old computers, or need to take better care of their systems
C) Some vital aspects are totally missing
Like what exactly? Everything that is in v1 is in v2, just some things are in different places. Firestorm is not feature equal with phoenix yet, but it is getting there. Nothing is missing now that I personally consider vital, but i spose for some niche cases that might be true.
D) Things that we use and need everyday are hidden in some sink-hole of a UI system that came out of a Wes Craven nightmare.
This ties in with A). you are just used to the v1 interface so can find your way around it quickly. V1 has Ui quirks too that make people scratch their heads.
So I'm sorry, but your post comes across as biased, unfactual... and disrespectful of those who dislike V2/3.
ReplyDeleteAs do the VAST majority of posts against v2 and users of v2, who take way way more crap than the v1 people can likely conceive of. I dont go around telling people that v1 sucks and you should all switch to v2, but i have seen v2 haters do that exact thing to users of firestorm and v2. I have seen v2 haters eject and ban users of v2 based viewers. I have seen them refuse to help with anything because they arent on the "correct" viewer. Quite frankly v1 clingers should start expecting a backlash, because it is getting ridiculous how much some hate v2. It is not *that* bad, and people have a right to use it too.
I appreciate it's your opinion-- but with all due respect-- that opinion needs a reality check-- and a little more respect for the opinions of those who disagree with you.
See above comment. V1 people are the ones that need to learn respect for opinions of those that disagree with you. Maybe when you get kicked from a sim because you use phoenix or a v1 based viewer, or someone refuses to help you with something until you switch to a "normal" v2 based viewer, or have people follow you around telling you how much your viewer sucks and how you should move from phoenix because everyone is using firestorm and no one wants clunky old viewer one that no one uses then you will understand. V1 loving people need to give respect and stop being so elitist against v2 using people or there will be a backlash.
Also, you guys can't seem to see the haughty, uncaring and blatantly offensive opinions you V1 people spout, only seeing what V2 proponents say as such. Calling for the team to stop all work on firestorm and go back to phoenix, thereby abandoning all the work they have done on it, is uncaring of the team and the people that use it. they have been saying for almost a year now that they will move on to firestorm some day. This is not coming as a shock or surprise except to those that just plain don't listen. Most of the calls to stop firestorm development are haughty, and in many cases offensive as well. I dont call for the end of v1 viewers, but they *are* coming whether you or i want them to or not. Instead of complaining about it i am getting used to the change. I see that as far more constructive than trying to take down other viewers.
Serith, some of your comments and opinions may be valid (or may not... as is the case with anyone, myself included).
ReplyDeleteYour replies to me were respectful, if totally different from my opinions... but that's fine.
I think what is happening is that people on both sides are feeling threatened. And I think that needs to stop. People who use Phoenix and like Phoenix don't like it when Firestorm or V2/3 users spout that V1 needs to be abolished. As I've already stated... I think it is extremely premature to speak of getting rid of V1s... especially when (at least from what I've seen) Phoenix works, and works well. Nevertheless, people have the right to state their opinion on such without personal attack in return.
At the same time, those who say Firestorm should be abandoned are in the same boat. They have the right to say so without personal attack in return... but need to realize that change is inevitable. Eventually... something will very likely replace V1. That time is most likely a couple of years away, but by no means should we abandon the concept of making a more stable, better viewer-- with a far better interface than either V1 or V2.
One advantage that I have is that I worked in this industry for almost 3 decades, and I know the difference between a good interface and a bad interface. V1 was a bad UI. It gained an industry reputation as being "newbie unfriendly". However, it was the interface that was used, known and understood by some 750,000 users. To throw that out entirely was just plain goofy.
At the same time, as bad an interface as V1 was... V2 was and is far, far worse. People can say "Oh I've gotten used to it". That doesn't make it a good interface. It just means some people are getting used to the interface... no matter how bad it is. In my professional opinion... V2/3 is a *terrible* interface, non-intuitive, and difficult to explain to others.
We needed a new interface. I don't think anyone denies that. But we didn't need V1 totally destroyed and thrown in the dumpster; we needed it improved, made friendlier, more intuitive, with the tools most often used at easy-access. What we absolutely did not need... was Viewer 2, which did nothing but muck up the situation terribly. No matter how "used to V2/3" people may get... imo it's still a lousy, non-intuitive UI. I've seen good UIs. I've designed good UIs. V1 was poor. V2/3 was/is worse, imo.
Let me give an example. I went to a store lately and picked up an iPad. I also picked up an android pad. Both of those I was able to use immediately, zero instructions, zero experience with either system. The pad UIs were intuitive, easy-to-understand, and everything was beginner-oriented.
Try that with Mac OS, Windows, or Linux-- all three of which are not good UIs. None of those systems are intuitive, easy-to-understand, newbie-friendly, or can be figured out without extensive and time consuming research.
(cont)
ReplyDeleteThat's just an example of the difference between a good UI and a bad UI. And that's what I've been talking about... that V1 was a poor UI, V2/3 was worse... and we definitely need something better. We need a UI that works on VR worlds like people work. Pad computers work like people think. Desktop computers don't. That's why people can pick up a pad and say "Wow this is kewl"... and it's why they sit down to Windows or Mac or Linux and scratch their heads in frustration.
But I will agree with you in one thing: people need to stop saying "trash this" and "trash that". Now... I myself have said repeatedly, to Linden Lab, to trash V2 and start over. That's because it's such an extremely horrible product. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. But I'm certainly not going to tell this gang to scrap Firestorm (well, maybe the name. I mean... Firestorm?)... nor do I think it is at all a good idea to stop supporting Phoenix.
So I'm very glad they put mesh into Phoenix, I'm very glad it's still available... and I think any plans to phase out Phoenix should come long after Firestorm has been "perfected"... the UI has been tested and approved by the general populace... and Phoenix simply is no longer needed. Until that time, talk by anyone of trashing either system is, imo, simply inappropriate and self-centered.
I have the feeling that basically you agree with me and are simply upset at people bashing a system that you find totally acceptable. I can sympathize with that. But... people are going to state their opinions, pro and con, one side and the other. So imo, folks should simply say what they think, be aware of the feelings of others, try to stay factual, and recognize how the industry works.
Change happens. Sometimes it's good, sometimes not so good. My main beef with Linden Lab is the fact that they totally ignored their customers when people raged against V2... and just forced their opinion on the entire grid. Fortunately though... they didn't outlaw (entirely) V1 viewers (they didn't dare).
I do think that after all this time, someone needs to realize that neither V1 nor V2 is the proper answer. What we need is an interface that resembles V1... but is far more intuitive and helpful. I don't believe the V2 interface is good at all; it's simply a bad design... and I say that from many years experience.
I don't think it's the goal of TPVs to exactly imitate Linden Lab. The idea is to do better-- far better. If that means making a UI that is radically different-- and radically better-- then I say that's the direction most people need to be thinking. Start with V1, add the best aspects of V2... make it work more sensibly, better, easier... and do it right.
Quick follow-up: As an important note, it was mentioned "I switch back and forth between V1 and V2/3 regularly".
ReplyDeleteThat's really not a good idea... and it's why I avoid testing Linden Lab's latest releases. There is mounting evidence that switching between V1 / 2/3 viewers can cause serious and permanent inventory loss... and of course Linden Lab doesn't seem to give a rat's hind end.
If one wishes to "test" V2/3... I would strongly suggest doing so with a totally different avatar. I have heard of numerous cases of folks losing thousands of L$ worth of inventory by switching between the two systems. This has been documented and reported, to the point that we put it in a blog on our group website as a warning.
So that's something for folks to think about, because to my knowledge... that problem has not been resolved.
Nice a woman talking diesel engines, would love to pick your brain on that one.
ReplyDeleteOk, I didn't want to get involved in this neverending viewer war, but since I see so many false claims spread here, I feel I need to...
ReplyDelete@Wayfinder
Your comment about ladies appearing naked in some viewers is VERY apropo. Good point. Most folks aren't aware of it... but there are still people using v1.23... Snowglobe, and a whole lotta people using Hippo. Anyone wearing mesh or even 2nd layer clothes without undergarments... will appear totally naked to older viewers. Many people are FORCED to use those viewers because they have older computers. A friend of mine was totally shocked to learn that he (a male, btw) appeared shirtless to 75% of the people around him. We should all be aware of that reality: not everyone is using new viewers, with the new functions.
This simply isn't true. Any viewer will download every clothing layer it supports from the server and bake it into a single avatar texture, which is then sent to everyone else around. It simply doesn't matter, if the viewer on the receiving end supports one, two or a zillion clothing layers, it will always be displayed correctly. If your friend appeared without a shirt, then because he didn't wear one... It's true, that mesh clothes will appear broken on non-mesh viewers, but the majority of mesh clothes comes with an alpha layer to hide the avatar underneath the clothes, so any V1 users will see a partly invisible avatar wearing a doughnut...
If one wishes to "test" V2/3... I would strongly suggest doing so with a totally different avatar. I have heard of numerous cases of folks losing thousands of L$ worth of inventory by switching between the two systems. This has been documented and reported, to the point that we put it in a blog on our group website as a warning.
I've tried and played with probably every viewer around, often switching to the one which serves the respective purpose best, but never lost a single item of inventory. I've seen that happen on OpenSim, but it merely was an issue with the viewer not downloading the inventory correctly. Simply clearing the cache fixed it... If it is such a common issue as you claim, please point us to JIRA describing it, there must be one for such an important problem...
@Hazeo - I don't really care about this new fashion in SL or if my dress moves with my virtual butt or not or seeing it on others. Maybe it looks good but I don't get in my WOW mood that easily. But that's just me...doesn't mean others don't like it anyway.
ReplyDeleteAs for all you including LL suggesting people to stop using SL if they can't affort to buy a new machine...
Although my computer supports SSE2 I still support the people that can't buy a new one. Just because I have a work in RL and getting paid a good amount of money so that it allows me changing my PC every couple of months doesn't mean everyone can do it. There are other priorities for many people in RL.
Anything that forces you to buy something to use it is bad for itself anyway. SL is all for money (at least for LL)and this is a bad marketing way to keep the money coming if you forcing players to stop using your application.
Phoenix team is doing a better work than what LL is doing. And we all should be grateful to this team as they provide us with better viewers to use both V1 and v2 ones. I just wished Firestorm was not based on V2 UI. That's all.
V1 and V2 viewers both have their good and bads. I respect the ones that like V2 UI but I choose the one that is easier for me to use and this is Phoenix until LL blocks it.
@Wayfinder Wishbringer
Very well said!
Oh, and while I am at it, I'm really curious to hear any other arguments about V2 other than "the UI sux". I'm gonna give a few to start an serious discussion:
ReplyDelete-KDU is a killer feature, makes textures rez twice to three times as fast as in Phoenix
-I build complex, scripted objects, often working with more than one script at once. On Phoenix/V1, I was more busy managing the cluttered window madness than actually working. The sidebar on V2 keeps most things tidy and easy to access, and since widescreens have been common since like 7 years, this has become one of the most common concepts of UI design, not only in SL, but in most software around. Compare to your internet browser...
-I love the quick navigation bar. I can quickly jump to my favourite sims without having to dig in my inventory first.
-Same with the outfit menu. No more spending hours dressing. Combine your outfit once, save it, dress with a single click later...
I agree, that V2 ain't perfect either, but it is a huge step forward. I don't think it can get much better without major changes to the underlying system (I'd love to have meta-data one day, to make it easier to handle stuff for casual users in SL)
As for the drops in FPS: Some videocard drivers (talking about AMD in particular, cannot speak for others) seem to enforce Anti-Aliasing for V2, but not V1 viewers, even if it is disabled in the viewer's hardware settings. This might cause a significant drop in speed on lower end hardware. Refer to your video driver's documentation on how to force it off... I cannot see a noticable difference in performance among the viewers on my box, which used to be a mid-range gaming-grade system 2 years ago...
I saw a lot of comments saying v2 is the future and v1 is the past, and that you must follow the evolution.
ReplyDeleteShould you follow an evolution ? Yes. Should you follow an INVOLUTION ? Why on earth ? V2 interface is, to be kind, a terrific involution. Why on earth should one accept tossing out something that *W*O*R*K*S* for something which in the best definition does *NOT* ? I understand phoenix team efforts, but as other said, direct them in the right direction. Following v2 crap may be the future, but it is not the right way. I will stick to phoenix till it works. Then I will stick to other v1 based viewers. Give me a truly better interface, not some paint on v2 crap, and I will consider it. Give me a viewer that has _all_ the features that made phoenix great. *All*. And I will consider it. Maybe that will be Firestorm v4 or v5, not for sure the current one.
SSE2 has been around longer than Second Life. SSE2 product began shipping via Intel late 2000 / early 2001 and via AMD in late 2003. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSE2 . I suppose if you bought a very low end AMD based computer in 2005 you might not have SSE2 support, but would seem to be about the limit. If you bought a typical computer since 2005, you should have SSE2 support. Does anyone have a computer less than 5 years old that doesn't support SSE2?
ReplyDeleteMy computer is 2 years old... and does have SSE2 support. It runs all three, V3, Phoenix, and Firestorm. I go just off the crash rates... V3 and Firestorm are neck and neck for lasting me about an hour maybe... Phoenix goes all day... and looks better. I know Firestorm is the future, and I am migrating to it.. but I'm not jumping up and down for joy about it. Personally I'm nervous about a mesh upgrade to Phoenix... I'll probably keep a copy of current build running just because when I'm building/coding, I need a stable machine that isn't going to crash before I can save the scripts.
ReplyDeleteI look at it when Windows puts out a new OS...
I usually wait till SR1 comes out before I upgrade... certainly till the (beta) comes off the title.
Absolutely many thanks, Jessica, even for the "mesh" release, which I wait for, AND for your clarifications, which are at least right and fair.
ReplyDeleteI think that, as a dying viewer, Phoenix doesn't need a full mesh support but just the capability to view meshes (which, I think, is not a light duty) so keep focusing on Firestorm developing, which all we're waiting for, and simply leave us the possibility to choose to use a Phoenix viewer which can "view" meshes or not, thanking even Henri and Ansariel too. :)
I'm looking forward to the very good work you and your team is doing on Firestorm to implement all the absolutely good features of Phoenix one (all the techie things, I mean, which 'are "mandatory" to me ;)) and, as soon as the gesture/chat problem (FIRE-1624) will be fixed, I will start to use Firestorm extensively and leave back my old good Phoenix, which saved me a lot in the SL world.
Thanks to have took over the Emerald (re)build, after that really big problem, thanks for all the time spent to make Phoenix and Firestorm better (and, besides the FIRE-1624, I found Firestorm really better on my MAChine), thanks to have tried to make the UI lighter, like Phoenix one is.
Keep on the good work. :)
Brainfart: "I didn't want to get involved in this neverending viewer war, but since I see so many false claims spread here, I feel I need to... This simply isn't true. Any viewer will download every clothing layer it supports from the server and bake it into a single avatar texture, which is then sent to everyone else around."
ReplyDeleteFirst point... the only "viewer war" that exists are those that insist on calling it a war, viewing it as a war, and participating in it as such. The rest of us are just discussing opinions. And while I'll agree there does seem to be those who insist on fomenting a "viewer war"... I consider it more than a little ridiculous and ill-behaved (not to mention opinionated and arrogant-- mind you not pointing the finger at anyone in specific). Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Those who consider people "enemies" just because their opinion is different... imo need to grow up a little. The whole "viewer war" concept is just plain silly. What, we can't discuss things as adults and respect even stong opinions different than our own? Yeah, there's a viewer war. And it's goofy.
Regarding the claim of the system baking things "into a single avatar texture"... sorry Brainfart, but I believe that's incorrect. Not only have techs told me that non-second-layer-equipped viewers won't rez second-layer clothing... but I've seen it with my own eyes. And yes... my friend WAS wearing a shirt... which a photo showed appeared fine in his viewer. But to half the people around him, it didn't. So I'm sorry, no, there is no "baking into a single avatar texture". If that was the case... we wouldn't see avatars with shirts rezzed and pants gray.
Brainfart: "I've tried and played with probably every viewer around, often switching to the one which serves the respective purpose best, but never lost a single item of inventory"
And again I find myself repeating... for how many Nth times... with all respect Brainfart, just because it hasn't happened to YOU doesn't mean it doesn't happen... and it doesn't mean the problem isn't widespread. Your personal experience is not the whole and end sum of SL existence. Why do we have to keep pointing that out to people?
As far as hunting for JIRAs... you're just as capable of doing a search as I, yes? I avoid doing other people's work for them. So instead of telling someone they're making "false claims" just because you haven't personally experienced it (I call that copping an attitude)... I would recommend you yourself check the JIRA, blogs, forums and Internet to see if it has been reported (ie, do a little research yourself rather than just telling other people they're wrong). A reasonable request, yes?
(cont)
ReplyDeleteNo fewer than four people from my group have reported this exact problem to me... one of which I witnessed myself with a close friend... who lost several thousand L$ worth of clothing she'd just bought days before (I was with her on the shopping trip and helped her organize the bought items in her inventory). She lost them directly after trying to switch to the V2.6 viewer (and no amount of effort restored that inventory-- not clearing cache, relogging, trying different viewers. It was GONE). And of course, she received zero help from Linden Lab "support". So I assure you sir... regardless of your personal, individual experience and opinion... this IS a problem that has happened to numerous people-- and was directly related to switching from a V1 to V2 viewer.
Myself, I don't report anything on JIRA anymore. Why? Because I wasted 6+ years doing so, and having those JIRAs regularly ignored and denied by LL (some of those being some of the most heavy-duty JIRA reports on the system). You want details of some of the major ones, I'll be happy to fill you in.
4120etc: "Why on earth should one accept tossing out something that *W*O*R*K*S* for something which in the best definition does *NOT* ?"
VERY good question. My answer was already stated up there: we shouldn't. We should wait until the new system works (and works WELL)... proves itself to be better... and then switch. Now certainly does not seem to be that time. Now those who enjoy beta testing and want to jump in and help the devs... I applaud that. But I think it is highly inappropriate for anyone at this time to be telling us it's time to phase out V1 and Phoenix. That is just extremely premature. So you stated that question well, 4120. The answer is: give us something far better, something that is stable, something that works, something that has a BETTER user interface... then suggest that we switch. Don't ask us to trade a nice pizza for a hotdog with no mustard.
I've used Firestorm for a couple of weeks before I switched back to Phoenix. Honestly the UI doesn't bother me so much, but the lack of Phoenix's features in Firestorm does. I realize that Firestorm is still in beta, so it's easily forgivable, but there are quite a few things I appreciate in Phoenix which keeps me with it. Until Firestorm is implemented with all of Phoenix's features and comes out of beta, I am sticking with good old Phoenix. I do really look forward to Firestorm's full release and hope that it is truly a better viewer to use when it's finished being polished up.
ReplyDeleteThank you for all your hard work making such awesome viewers and hope your excellence never changes. ^^
@ Wayfinder
ReplyDeleteI have had no issues at all switching between viewers, but then again I dont do it several times a day, just when i need to use v1 for something. by v1 i mean phoenix, and v2 for the most part firestorm, and LLs viewer. Some may have issues, but I myself have not.
@Karol As for all you including LL suggesting people to stop using SL if they can't affort to buy a new machine...Although my computer supports SSE2 I still support the people that can't buy a new one.Anything that forces you to buy something to use it is bad for itself anyway.
I dont feel bad telling someone whose computer cannot run SSE2 that they need to get a new computer. SSE2 is on every computer since 2005, and on most computers since 2001. If your computer doesnt have SSE2 then it is at least 6 years old, and if its intel then its 10 years old. Most people dont drive 10 year old cars without expecting some performance issues, why is it different for computers? And with new PCs being like 400 dollars for a passable computer, there is not really that big an excuse not to get a new one. thats not being elitist, thats being a realist. You cant expect to run the latest things on 10 year old hardware.
@ 4120f95c-bd21-11e0-8ffb-000f20980440
ReplyDeleteI saw a lot of comments saying v2 is the future and v1 is the past, and that you must follow the evolution.
Not necessarily, but it is smart to get used to change, or it makes it harder to get used to later on.
Why on earth should one accept tossing out something that *W*O*R*K*S* for something which in the best definition does *NOT* ?
V2 works just fine. Linden Labs is tossing out V1, and the TPVs are doing the same thing they did with viewer 1: trying to make it better. They did it with phoenix, now they are doing it with firestorm.
I understand phoenix team efforts, but as other said, direct them in the right direction. Following v2 crap may be the future, but it is not the right way.
Actually it is the right way since, yanno, the company that makes SL is moving to v2 based tech on the servers and in world. Clinging to viewer 1 like a security blanket is not the right way either. Besides the UI, most everything about V2 is better or the same as v1, and the UI is in some cases just a preference.
I will stick to phoenix till it works. Then I will stick to other v1 based viewers.
And why not a v2 based viewer? Firestorms Ui is not the same as V2 from Linden Labs. Most every viewer on the grid will move to v2 codebase at some point.
Give me a truly better interface, not some paint on v2 crap, and I will consider it.
Have you actually tried firestorm? It has a v2 look to it, but it is not "paint on". It is hard to make a great interface. Could they do better than v2? yes, but v1 is not it. Who knows, they might be able to come up with a better interface in time. Firestorm is already better than v2 interface and its only been a few months.
Give me a viewer that has _all_ the features that made phoenix great.
Apparently you havent been listening to the office hours or such. They are adding in all the features that phoenix had. A UI is not a feature, btu all the actual features, like spell check, radar and such, firestorm will have or does have. Its still in beta, but nevertheless, it will have all the features phoenix has .
Please take in to account that ALOT of people CANNOT use firestorm or V3 of LL because it is not compatible with something on their system. That equals crash after crash. lots of bug,ect. I do not like the people that say" buy a better computer" like everyone that plays sl is spoiled and rich. For some of us the only option is the latest version of Phoenix and that is it.
ReplyDelete@Lone Jacobs
ReplyDeletePlease take in to account that ALOT of people CANNOT use firestorm or V3 of LL because it is not compatible with something on their system. That equals crash after crash. lots of bug,ect.
Not really, most dislike the UI, not because its more buggy. Those that complain of the bugs generally have not used it in a while, since the latest viewers have not had too many bugs. If there is a problem with your computer, run anti virus scans, defragment, run system updates, do system maintenance, check your connection, then see if those fix your issues
I do not like the people that say" buy a better computer" like everyone that plays sl is spoiled and rich.
If your computer does not run SSE2 then yeah, but a new computer. its unreasonable to expect developers to have to keep support for decade old hardware. Its unfair to the rest of us as well that have more modern computers to have our abilities held back because some people wont upgrade their hardware. Also, its not a "spoiled, rich" thing, if you want better performance, buy a better computer. Don't complain when your old computer wont run the latest stuff. Thats the way technology works.
For some of us the only option is the latest version of Phoenix and that is it.
Phoenix and firestorm have the same system requirements.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the claim of the system baking things "into a single avatar texture"... sorry Brainfart, but I believe that's incorrect.
Well, it's not a single texture, but it is a single layer. The viewer (not LL Servers) bakes all the layers you are wearing down to one. The order is skin, tattoo, underwear, regular pants and shirts, jacket, skirt, and alpha. The V2 feature of wearing multiple shirts for example just adds this to the mix in the order worn.
So... These multiple layers are backed into three textures, head, upper body, and lower body. These 3 textures are then uploaded to SL and is what other people see.
The grey is simply that 1) the baking process for a body section failed, 2) transfer from your viewer to SL failed, or 3) the downloading from SL to other users has failed. Most of the grey issues are #2 and #3.
Clouds are usually caused by the shape (mesh) not loading correctly (which is impacted by the hair, skirt, and shoe clothing layers as they change the shape of the mesh.)
THE single biggest problem in SL right now is unreliable communications. If at any point, communication isn't perfect, you end up with grey or cloudy avatars. Communication failures also are the cause of failed teleports, failed group chat, missing chat, unloaded objects, etc.
LL is Sooooo freaking busy implementing new features nobody needs and very few want that they are ignoring this problem.
Of course the problem is compounded by the fact that the sim servers are all about 3 years old now and don't have the processing power or memory to handle current usage. They are obsolete, just like non SSE2 desktops. LL needs to replace about 10,000 servers at a cost of about $20M to fix it. Guess what isn't going to happen?
just for the fact that rlv will be actualized its more then worth. about the meshes, to soon to still guess what the impact on the grid, still the most used viewer be able to have them is amzing:)
ReplyDeleteThe biggest point that I hope developers both Linden and Phoenix hear out of these discussions is the overwhelming thumbs down for the new V2 interface. Its not subjective, or meaningless when this many people who have voted with their feet to migrate to phoenix speak out.
ReplyDelete-- in fact this audience is probably one of your best resources for objective feedback since we have all explored mainstream viewers, alternate viewers, and UI's - and made our choice accordingly.
I'd also like to say that knowingly sticking to a bad design and continuing to support it despite outrage from users is a strange way of dealing with a free usability study. V2 is a disaster from a usability standpoint. Yes, some are willing to adapt. That doesn't change things.
I for one will be riding phoenix to the very end until it is prised from my cold dead fingers. The opportunity is wide open for another development team (including lindens) to consider how to address UI in an alternate client. They couldn't go wrong to take a lesson from the Phoenix UI which is the most popular TPV for good reason.
It really comes down to making the choice to listen to what informed and experienced users and content creators are saying - or not. That more than anything else is what will determine the future of UI and success of mainstream and TPV clients. (Kudos Henry)
~ Sho
Sharie: "
ReplyDeleteLL is Sooooo freaking busy implementing new features nobody needs and very few want that they are ignoring this problem."
That has been one of my pet peeves with LL for *years*: ignore the serious foundation problems and instead spend time creating new toys. I just played an online VR world game yesterday that must have had 100 people standing around, dancing, playing games, in a significantly large environment... and absolutely zero lag or glitches that I could see. After 8+ years online and all that time to correct foundation problems... SL should be SuperDuper Life, not Second-rate Life. So I surely must agree with your statement. Severely bad management. Dot.com brats playing games with other people's money.
Serith: "its unreasonable to expect developers to have to keep support for decade old hardware"
That's a somewhat valid point. On the other hand, that's what "feature sliders" are for... so those with older hardware can still use the system (albeit at greatly debilitated level). But I won't disagree that at some time... people simply have to invest in equipment that can handle current requirements. There is certainly no shortage of ways to acquire new (or quality used) computers with some real power. A computer fully capable of running SL can be purchased for as little as $400 to $500, brand new, full bore. People upgrading to "latest and greatest" often sell their excellent-shape old computers for $100 or so. So I don't completely disagree with your sentiment here... but I also think that software-selective allowances can still be made for older equipment.
What about "web pages on a prim" support for Phoenix as well as all of the other features put into SL viewer 2, prior to SL viewer 3/mesh?
ReplyDeleteWow sure are a lot of crybabies here about how everyone hates viewer 2/3. What hasn't already been said about this that hasn't been repeated 100's of times already? kina sick of it, and it seems everyone assumes firestorm will continue on with the suckage of v2/3 and are ready to give up on FS before it even gets out of beta.
ReplyDeletePhoenix/Firestorm seems like the kind of "hope" we were hoping from President Obama (i.e. firestorm), but we ended up with the same crap we had with President Bush (i.e. Viewer 2/3). I feel the SAME resentment here as people who argue politics all day.
Must be some kind of inherent need for people to whine, bitch and moan over little details, and ignore the real issues about performance, lag, and comparability.
oops i meant "Compatibility"
ReplyDeleteMy point of view is much the same as Sho's. I would just like choice, and not to feel 'forced' into using a view that I find awkward and unkind to the eyes. I don't argue with people about it or enter into flame wars. I just like my personal choice. Phoenix does the job for me, just like emerald used to. Viewer one at the time was not good for me. Viewer 2 and Firestorm make my hair stand on end with frustration.
ReplyDeleteA lot of game developers make this same mistake. They develop the future of the game despite a majority being not in favour of it. And that again is just my personal opinion, I saw Runescape do it, Ultima Online do it and countless others.
And all I really want, is choice.
Feel it like you want, V1 (1.23 based) is going to D-I-E finito, kaput, i was the first to spit on LL Viewer 2, then firestorm came and it changed my point of view on it, smoother, multi features (multilayers, meshes, etc...)
ReplyDeleteSo hell! why dont you people try this one? with the V1 you look like... half blind on the Grid, embrace the futur, don't fear it ;)
I am a Phoenix fan. I have been for quite some time. What I love about Phoenix is the functionality and stability it offers me. I am a v2/v3 "hater". The LL ill-conceived interface is just horrifying to me. I have spent many hours, weeks even, trying to get used to v2, and then Firestorm. I have high hopes for Firestorm, as I understand change is inevitable. But, for many, Firestorm still isn't viable until stability issues and some of the promised tweaks and updates are added. Many features of Phoenix that I've come to depend on or just really like and prefer, aren't built into Firestorm yet.
ReplyDeleteSo, not all of us "haters" are totally against v2/v3 or firestorm, we're against poor performance and reduced functionality compared to what we're used to. This development team has set very high standards with the outstanding job they did with Phoenix. I know Firestorm will be just as good, but it takes time. When Phoenix first started (or emerald even), it wasn't the best... the hard work and dedication of a brilliant team made it the best, and eventually Firestorm will dethrone Phoenix. Till that day comes, Thank you to Jessica, Tonya and the rest of the team for both keeping Phoenix off the scrap heap a little longer, and for working to make firestorm all that phoenix was and more!
Please could somebody explain why it is that having a new technology to do all sorts of cool new stuff requires a total redesign of the user interface? Surely whether your inventory access is in a side bar or a menu or a great big flashing neon sunflower button in the middle of your screen is just a graphical link - the coding saying 'press this tool to make this task happen' is the important bit. Obviously there would have to be new menu options to incorporate new, v2 features but I am really at a loss why the entire visual interface had to be changed so drastically. Especially when Emerald and Phoenix did fine, before v2 even came along, in adding in all kinds of new features to the v1 UI!
ReplyDeletePlease note here I'm not arguing about whether or not it's better, or whether we should just get used to it or commit hara kiri; I just want to understand why, apparently, it's *necessary*. As far as the great majority of technically clueless SL residents like me are concerned (and yes, I suspect I AM speaking for a lot of people) it just looks as though LL decided on a whim to redesign the graphics (they've done it before) and all the other viewers followed simply because they imported the whole setup lock, stock and barrel and then had higher priorities - like making things work properly (or better!) - than the UI to deal with. Until people started complaining. And then they started fixing it so it was more like the old style. And again, I don't understand, and would like to know why, this isn't just a cosmetic treatment, but apparently something that requires considerable coding overhaul to implement.
But hey, I'm not technical, I don't know what's tricky and what's not! If someone reputable (like one of the Phoenix coders, not just some asshat who likes dissing others because they don't know as much as him) just wants to say, yep, it really isn't that simple, new code and features require a totally reconfigured UI, then fine, I'll go with it. I don't really need details. I'd just like to hear from someone I can trust, then I'll understand that losing the v1 interface may be the only way forward, and that's fine.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it..."
Oh and I couldn't give a rat's ass about mesh, personally. I'd rather just have a fast, stable viewer* with as much screen real-estate as v1 - I don't mind reconfigured menu options, I can learn them, but I CANNOT and WILL NOT stand for cluttering of my screen with sidebars that won't go away. And thank you all very much for fixing the build menu so it collapses :) Collapsible menus are the way to go.
*Firestorm wasn't, for me, last time I tried, but that was a while ago.
First,Firestorm is far more configurable than Phoenix ever was. With the one exception of text buttons,there really isn't anything that can't be made to look and mostly work like Phoenix if you so desire. Most of you complaining about it probably haven't actually given the day or two of working with it to have a fair comparison.
ReplyDeleteTo those saying the time spent de-sucking the UI proves they should just keep backporting to Phoenix, I'll just point out that the underlying code of V2 is far more advanced. While changing it's UI isn't particularly easy, it's far easier to do that than backporting large chunks of v2 code into v1.
No whining about needing SSE2 either. The nine year old computer I had before my current one could do that. If yours can't, a used $50 computer off E-bay would probably be a major upgrade.
Finally, consider this. LL was likely hoping mesh would be the feature that would kill V1 based viewers over time. Now they see that even totally unreasonable amounts of coding work won't stop certain people from back porting code causing viewers with more bugs and worse performance for many. What do you think is likely to happen?
Not surprising, tons of people resisting change here. What is it with SL and backwards passionate people? The stink over voice years ago and now how dare LL make the viewer have half way decent interface!!
ReplyDeleteI am definitely in the minority but I don't care about Phoenix at all and use Firestorm 100% of the time. Before that, used V2 clients. I am sick of people who are stuck in the past, V1 is holding things back and I blame all the backwards SL folks out there for helping hold back SL.
Just wish they'd spend some time on Firestorm, no not ruining the UI as so many wish they would, by fixing the endless bugs that 3.0.1 has. From the rate of development that Firestorm is going, it seems that all their developers are working on Phoenix, something I was happy to hear was dead until I read blog postings like this.
I am not resistant to change and love it when it works but I love and prefer Firestorm up until the beat mesh release and now I cannot use it because it constantly crashes for me. I had a custom av with all the multi layers etc and had to redo my whole look when I was forced to go back to Phoenix because it works. I will not use the Phoenix with mesh because I know I will be crashing again with it.
ReplyDeleteI blame it all on this useless mesh BS. Mesh clothes look horrific to me. Mesh clthing does not fit my avi unless I use an alpha layer and it totally changes my avatar shape taking away my nice bubble but lol
Mesh is the cause of all this turmoil and I hope it fails miserably1
Hopefully I can return to my favorite viewer-Firestorm, when they release the next version and have all the damn new bugs fixed.
Fix whats broken first before adding new useless bells and whistles. No wonder folks are leaving SL in droves.
It’s okey to point out that the V1 UI has decidedly not been a good one in the first place because that’s very true. But… Emerald and then Phoenix have mended a good deal of those flaws, so the V1 UI became summat usable, and that’s exactly the decisive point (I can hardly remember what the bare 1.23 was like). If this much-improved V1 UI and functionality is to be substituted, then pray by something which is clearly better, not just different. If I have to take the pain and time of learning something new, I expect a reasonably good return on investment. And, sorry, I just can’t help it: I think the usability of the V2 UI is still very questionable. In terms of user guidance it’s just an epic fail. Too little overall-logic, too many hierarchy levels, in other words: too much unnecessary clutter.
ReplyDeleteI certainly don’t blame the Firestorm devs for that, on the contrary I’ll admit at once that they have already done a great deal of V2-UI-tweaking for the better with remarkable success. I’m certainly very grateful what with that, especially as it can’t be much fun to clean up the messy code the Linden programmers seem to have come up with (just look at the Linden JIRA…) to entertain their users and other devs.
To put that in the clear: the criticism doesn't refer to the underlying V2-engine (which certainly means inevitable and, to me, quite welcome technological progress). It’s all about the UI which might be a web-designer’s wet dream, but do I care about web-designers when it comes to a high-end game which requires more demanding solutions?
Looking at the Linden side of the matter, all I see is attempted suicide by management, and that’s revolting.
And to whom it may concern: pray stop the flaming. It’s boring. I don’t need any evangelism. I need a viewer that’s fun to play with, and you flamers don’t make any contribution to that at all. If anyone has issues that should be solved or suggestions to improve the Firestorm experience, the JIRA is here for that. Be constructive!
What about leaving Phoenix alive for other grids like InWorldz and AviNation? Or must we all go and switch to the crappy and buggy Imprudence viewer?
ReplyDeleteOther grids don't desire mesh support as of now. And Phoenix has some Inventory synq issues in InWorldz. Why not make Phoenix into a V1 viewer for the other grids?
@Ziggy
ReplyDeleteThe beta Firestorm Mesh viewer has the same render engine as V3.0 from LL. Since ~2.80, the renderer has a lot of crashing bugs. I have an nvidia 460 GTX and ever since that change to the engine, shadows and any complex rendering will crash my video card. I use Firestorm 2.5.2 for now since the rendering engine in that one is older and not as buggy. I have a feeling that the Phoenix developers do not have the resources to fix graphic bugs so until LL fixes these crashing bugs, everyone will be stuck with them if they want to use a Mesh enabled viewer.
You can still download Firestorm 2.5.2 if you want. Go to the download page and select "other downloads."
Complain about Phoenix and Firestorm all you want. Just remember that they're free, and without the desire and passion of the unpaid volunteers that make up the entire Third Party Viewer community, you'd be be using Viewer2. Period.
ReplyDeleteQuit bitching about stuff you got for free. Don't like it? Move on. Ask for a full refund for the purchase price of your viewer and buy one you like.
Hiya. I just have to say normally I wouldn't touch any version of v2 with a ten foot pole. It's gawky, awkward and just downright unfriendly BUT I have to say that the newest version of firestorm featuring mesh is none of these. It has many of the same features as v1 AND the graphics are out of this world. I have to say thank goodness to the Make her over hunt that had a few mesh products or I would never have thought to try the new version.
ReplyDeleteAs I user I appreciate all the hardwork put into this amazing update/program.
Thanks!
EvieBunny
Back in the '90s I used Word Perfect 5.1 DOS and dBase III DOS. Everyone used them, because everyone used them. And everyone used them because they started with the central task, and added features in the background. Word Perfect was written for typists. Typists type words. Fancy fonts and formats are nice on occasion, but word processing is about words.
ReplyDeleteThe best feature of the WP interface was that after I used it for a while, I didn't even notice it. I just thought about what I wanted to do, my fingers went the right places and stuff happened that I wanted to happen. My fingers still want to use alla them F keys. :)
My point is that a good UI becomes invisible. The Phoenix UI may be good or bad, I dunno, but I know where stuff is. And I look over at my other monitor and I don't see Phoenix. I see Second Life.
When I had to change to Word -- because everyone did -- I hated it. And there are bad aspects to it. But it mostly bugged me because the Word interface doesn't get the heck out of the way. Word seemed designed for folks who wanted a lot of fancy formatting -- possibly with some words in there somewhere.
I'm on SL to be on SL, not to muck about with a viewer interface, however feature-rich. The trouble I have with V2 -- and I've made several "runs" at it -- is that I find it damn hard to get to SL through that screen full of excess buttons and whatnot filling my screen. There may be a function that gets all that crap out of my way, but that function is the one "feature" they've successfully hidden.
I've stuck with Phoenix and its various ancestors, not because of any wonderful features, but because there's damn-all on my screen but SL itself. Not true of the Labs' viewers.
I'm not using Firestorm yet, simply because it's Beta. Get me a stable release, I'll give it a try. But if the UI disappears into the background for me, if all I see is SL, unless I'm looking for something else, it's a success.
The technology "under the hood" is a separate issue. The Ford Model A has a "UI" I really like, nice and open, simple, great visibility. But I wouldn't take it on the freeway.
Give me a viewer that gets the heck out of the way, and runs properly on and correctly shows me whatever it is SL turns out to be, I'll use it. Lemme know when it's ready. :)
Thanks.
Grizzly Silversmith
Hei folks,
ReplyDeleteA friend of mine is unable to login into tge mesh 3 viewer with his main account (+3years old). however he can access with an alt account (residente)
- logs deleted
- avatar folder deleted with all templates etc
- cache cleaned
- and tried reinstallation several time
error message: unale to login. please verify usernam or password
please contact me at . noom.teardrop@live.com.pt
Well, despite some very strange Sculpty display bug, thats obviously coming from the mesh supporting graphics engine i have no real trouble anymore with Firestorm.
ReplyDeleteHowever thats the point, i have no problem using firestorm but i like to use phoenix, so even with the hard work that has been put into firestorm since the day you guys decided to make a viewer2 based viewer, i still like your viewer1 based viewer much better.
Bottom line, i tried nearly every viewer in existence and still both your viewers top them all (in their respective category). If you can even further make firestorm feel less like viewer2/3, if you can make it as stable as it is right now or even more so, and make it to a final release soon, I won't be too sad if at one point my phoenix viewer won't do as good anymore.
I am somewhat baffled by the extreme hostility in this thread. The ones who accuse V1 users of only trying Firestorm for a few minutes before giving up have no way of knowing how long people have tried to use V2. Obviously there are real issues of bugs and incompatibility with various operating systems. This is not the fault of people on older computers, it is the fault of Linden Lab for producing an unstable viewer that crashes computers. It is as simple as that.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the developers of Phoenix and Firestorm should keep both viewers operating until the bugs have all been worked out of Firestorm. From a strictly business standpoint it makes no sense to insult one's customer base every time somebody asks a question or raises a legitimate compatibility/stability issue. That only provokes hostile reactions and causes people to seek out other "sellers," or in this case, TPV developers who know how to respond to customer concerns. While I can understand the sense of frustration felt by Phoenix developers, the fact that there continues to be an ongoing war of insults between them and their "customers" is indicative of a serious communication problem on the part of the development team. I sense an elitist attitude on the part of developers and their supporters that is provoking the reactions of people who saw no reason to replace a stable viewer with one that is too unstable and destructive for most SL users to get into.
Surely Wayfinder's suggestion to continue working on both viewers has merit. As the kinks are worked out of V2/V3 and those viewers become more stable and user-friendly, Phoenix may gradually be phased out. Until then it makes better business sense to allow "customers" a choice between what they like and the product you hope to sell as your main one.
Just my opinion for what it is worth.
@ Wolfenstein: I don’t see where the Phoenix/Firestorm devs are at war with their clientele at all. Btw, »customers« is a very inappropriate term in this context. It easily leads to the misapprehension that the users had any right to Phoenix being continued and Firestorm being discontinued or whatever. The Phoenix/Firestorm team don’t sell anything, they share something they think is worth using. Strictly their choice, it’s an offer one may accept or refuse. And as they don’t have abundant resources it’s quite natural that they rather focus their efforts on Firestorm. If one of the team devoted her time and energy to port Henri Beauchamps’ mesh code to Phoenix, that’s great. Something one can be truly grateful for. I as a Phoenix and Firestorm user can demand nothing of the devs. I may tell them what I like and what I don’t like and make suggestions on the JIRA how to improve things IMHO. In a sensible, concise and calm fashion.
ReplyDeleteI want to thank everyone involved in making Phoenix available to SL users; it is probably the best viewer I have used in my four years in SL. Having said that, I too agree with Shari that V2 is irredeemable, it is simply horrible to use, and I have really made an attempt to use it; I have no idea what SL was thinking, if at all when they came up with this viewer. To those who say Firestorm is the future, I would reply that emulating SL's mistakes does not bode well for the future, and the fact that someone was able to set up a V1 viewer for Mesh indicates that any future "improvements" released by LL can also be incorporated into the V1 as demonstrated by Henri Beauchamp's Cool Viewer. While I love my Phoenix viewer, I will sadly move to Cool viewer if it becomes a choice between Firestorm and Cool viewer since Firestorm/V2 is simply not what I want
ReplyDeleteWell, after using Phoenix for a couple weeks and loving it... I'm going to have to take what is probably a very unpopular stance here.
ReplyDeleteLogged in three days ago to find my primary avatar (one that consists of all prims) torn to shreds. All the attachment points had been lost, nothing would fit in the right place. I had to completely re-wear and re-align all the attachments. All in all it took more than half an hour to get everything back in place where it was supposed to be.
Upon research and contacting a very-in-the-know tech, I was told that Phoenix is known for botching avatars from time to time. This came as no surprise to me because LL's V2/3 does the same thing... and even can destroy inventory. While Phoenix is not V2/3 based, word is there are some adaptations to LL's functions that cause the same problems with avatars.
So... once again I found myself wiping a viewer from my system and going back to good ol' Hippo 6.3... which although limited in function at least doesn't destroy my avatars or inventory.
Phoenix is an impressive TPV and I certainly appreciate all the hard work that goes into it. Every viewer has problems, without exception. Singularity was good but I couldn't stand the attitude of a couple of folks on the dev team. Imprudence is good, but it has serious sound problems (can't hear sound and gestures until crossing a parcel line) and it crashes about 5 times a day (when will anyone fix that constant crashing problem?... ALL these viewers crash on a regular basis due to that infernal memory leak issue that's continued for years). But of all the viewers, only Phoenix seriously trashed my avatar, and from what I understand has a rep for doing so. I'm sure this doesn't happen regularly, and such is probably only triggered in specific instances, but I sure am not going to risk my favorite avs on an unstable viewer glitch. That is one reason I absolutely refuse to use LL's V2/3. No viewer should ever trash inventory, period.
So I'm back to Hippo 6.3 again because despite the fact it's limited in functions... it's stable as a rock. Crashing is minimal, it works, and most importantly, it doesn't destroy inventory. With the exception of that one problem, Phoenix is a fine viewer in general. But in the case of all viewers, more attention needs to be paid to stable foundation and less attention to gimmicks and toys (like mesh, for example. I'm all for mesh, but I'm far more for stable inventory).
Wolfenstein posted an excellent summary back there. One of the things he said was: "people who saw no reason to replace a stable viewer with one that is too unstable and destructive for most SL users to get into." That kind of summarizes the whole thing. I find it a shame that after all this time, after testing so very many viewers, the one I keep coming back to and using is the one that is STABLE. Hang the bells, whistles, toys and features. Hang the fancy new UIs and mesh and all that other garbage. Give me a viewer that WORKS.
The bottom line with V2/3 is that Linden Lab found it proper to totally trash an interface that was used and had been used for years by almost a million people. That is stupid in a box. At least the TPVs for the most part recognized that reality and retained was was in actuality a usable interface (which just needed tweaking, as most TPVs did). I admire the work the Phoenix/Firestorm folks are doing but: I need a stable viewer. Without stability, all the bells and whistles in the world mean nothing to me. I cannot and will not use any viewer that messes with my inventory, period. When those problems are fixed-- both in SL, OpenSim, Inworldz, etc (multiple grids are a reality these days, folks), I'll be happy to re-visit Phoenix/Firestorm/whatever. But until those things are fixed, I'm sticking with what works, and mesh be hanged.
Guy learns all the time… I didn't know until today that Phoenix had a »reputation« for damaging avatars and inventories. Sorry, but I find it hard to buy that one. I have never had any issues like that, and I’m a heavy user who has been online several hours a day since Feb. 2, 2007. I have never even heard about these issues, and I know a lot of people who have been using Phoenix on a regular basis since it had been released.
ReplyDeleteJessica has pointed out something which is probably very true: the backporting of mesh-code to V1-based viewers will only prolong their life-cycles for a limited time, but not forever, and that’s it. The V2/V3-engine is here to stay, so we are solely talking about what the UI should be like and what additional functionality a viewer worth using should have as it seems that they don’t know or care much about this at Linden Lab. But I will concede at once that even the Lindens would rather have their code bug-free.
If you are really serious about Firestorm being the choice, I have a simple piece of advise:
ReplyDeleteStop development on Phoenix completely, just as you promised.
The more you patch up Phoenix, the more people will stick to it, like an old shoe.
Serious bug-fixes is one thing, but adding features is bad. Now you'll have extra code in Phoenix to maintain, and believe me, the Mesh-code with require a lot of updates.
For one thing this *will* take resources from development of Firestorm, secondly, it will make it harder for people to switch.
You promised no feature updates to Phoenix - then megaprims came to Phoenix before it came to Firestorm. Then you said, Phoenix will never have Mesh. Now you're adding Mesh, and updating other features as well.
If you truely want to dedicate to Firestorm, you have to be able to ignore the huge user-base Phoenix represents. Let them keep the ancient code. Don't even spend time on bugfixes.
Don't make support of Phoenix a priority. Leave the Phoenix users behind, where they want to be!
I wont judge anyone for using Phoenix, I am sure its *was* great viewer, and i certainly wasn't happy about viewer2 at first. But you need to burn the bridge behind you, if you want to truly step forward.
Jessica, you made the correct decision, now please stick to it: "No feature updates to Phoenix!".
The diversion of resources away from updating Firestorm to update Phoenix is a reprehensible decision. Firestorm already lags behind V3 improvements by over a month's development and diverting resources to prop up Phoenix means Firestorm will lag even further behind.
ReplyDeletePersonally as a content creator who's been making stuff for over 5 years in SL, and makes a living I don't want to be left behind. I want and embrace change in whatever LL throws at us. But with that said AS a content creator Firestorm just isn't a viable option for me at this moment. I tried FS and love it, but sadly I have to stay with Phoenix because (and this is the only reason) v2 doesn't have a way to count scripts (I think you threw this option in FS v3), remove scripts from selection and doesn't have the confirmation dialogue box to set scripts to running or not in selection like Phoenix. I tried putting resize scripts in a 200 prim object and even waited blindly in FS to get them to run and about 1/3 still doesn't. I know I'm in the minority with this issue, (and I also know there's a JIRA on this) and it doesn't effect enough people to care but that really is my only complaint. I don't have any desire to hope back and forth between viewers even though I have both installed. So all I'm saying is maybe work on some little stuff to make the viewer better? Pretty please? :)
ReplyDeleteI really haven't said much about Firestorm itself. From what I've heard, it's a little early for people to be switching because of bugs, but we know bugs are resolved with relative speed. But if people are expected to switch to Firestorm, fine, I'm all in, given that:
ReplyDelete1) The UI is better than LL's product-- meaning usable, user-friendly, intuitive
2)It has all the things we need (refer to Jade's post above)
3) It works and doesn't tear up inventory like LL's V3 (and my recent experience with Phoenix... no insult intended)
Those three things given, I'm all for focusing on Firestorm. Any of those three things missing... and like so many here, I'll stick with a viewer that works. That's no insult to the devs at all-- it's just an individual user making a decision as to what I'm going to do. For someone to get me away from the V1 (Phoenix platform)... they're going to have to offer me something better than V1. So far... I haven't seen anything better, and frankly, imo V3 is considerably worse. If Firestorm gets to the point it outperforms both V1 and V3, I'll check it out. Until then... I've still gotta work on a daily basis, and "not working just yet" isn't the answer I'm looking for.
When "Firestorm rocks" is the credo that echos in these halls... that's when I'll take a serious look at it. Myself, I think that's a fair stance. : )
Raymond: "I have never even heard about these issues, and I know a lot of people who have been using Phoenix on a regular basis since it had been released."
ReplyDeleteFair enough. That's your experience and I respect that. However, that doesn't negate my experience, nor does it negate the fact that when I mentioned to a very-competent tech friend my experience, he said basically, "BAD Wayfinder! Phoenix messes with avatars. Didn't you know that?" and he then proceeded to tell me why (not that I remember that rather complex explanation). So I have to say my experience isn't unique or singular.
Now granted, it may be rare enough that it's not a widespread problem, but obviously there is indeed a "rep" to an extent. I noted above when I mentioned that Linden Lab's V2/3 hasn't only messed up avatars but actually destroyed inventory, I got a reply similar to yours (hasn't happened to me or any of my friends!). So I'll reply the same thing I replied to that person: personal experience isn't the sum and all of virtual experienced. I personally know of four people that V2 trashed their inventory, Phoenix messed up my avatar, and a VERY competent tech revealed to me he was aware of that problem in Phoenix (which means the problem exists, at least to an extent).
Perhaps that problem is easy to fix. Perhaps it's inherited from trying to be compatible with current Linden Lab code. Perhaps it's a glitch caused by some random event on a specific grid. But... the problem is there, it means that I personally cannot use Phoenix, so I'll have to wait for future releases and hope that problem ceases to be a problem.
I had heard about the "Mesh in V1" viewer a few weeks ago but thought it as a joke.
ReplyDeleteI know I'm gonna be hated for saying this but I think that is and was a mistake, it hard enough to get people to think about going to the new code with no option, getting some of them to go to a V2 when they think there are V1's that will see mesh will be like getting a elephant to tech college level calculus.
It amazes me the number of people who are active in a virtual world but are not open to change in technology.
I just want to say THANK YOU to all the DEVS for the amazing job you are doing, and for free! More power to you. Long live SL, whatever your viewer if choice.
ReplyDeleteKinda makes me laugh at the people whining about V2 viewers and well the fact is phoenix is out of date the 1.3 code is simply not fully compatible with the changes that are being made to the linden servers.
ReplyDeleteAs for the v2 in firestorm well when i first tryed it yes i thought omg it sucks however a week later i was used to it and it was very easy to understand and very useable the things i see why people say it sucks is becuse they are ether stubourn / scared of change / refusal to adapt to change / they havent even tryed it and are simply bassing the coments on what others say. As for those that say "i dont care about mesh fashion" well again have you acualy seen the quality items ? have you even tryed them? im guessing you havent and its not just about fasion mesh is grid wide and is being used for buildings / vehicals / furnature / rocks / trees avatars heck jsut about everything is switching over to mesh at a very rapd rate (just look at the marketplace)so by all means be ignorant and ignore mesh but thos on mesh will be laughing at you when you inceasingly visit sims only to see nothing but nicely textured cubes and eggs
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ReplyDeleteWhy do I not like Firestorm? Really, it's a bunch of little things. In my inventory, I cannot type the first letter of the folder I want to be taken to the group of folders starting with that letter. That irritates me more than anything. Secondly, I don't like how the chat bar is laid out and I despise the icons. I hate how there are so many redundant environment editors, and time of day was move to sun position. My biggest gripe, the reason I hate hate hate firestorm, is because a LOT of stuff was moved, seemingly arbitrarily. Why? Because Viewer 2 moved it? I thought firestorm was supposed to improve on viewer 2, not ape it in the worst ways.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad Phoenix is getting mesh support. I like the Phoenix UI. CoolVL Viewer is, in the strictest sense of the word, a V1 viewer, whereas Phoenix uses the same UI that Emerald gave us so long ago. So unless someone picks up Phoenix and runs with it, the choices will be straight V1 viewer, or Firestorm/V2/V3 viewers.
I think the complaints about Firestorm would be far more sparse if we were able to skin it like Phoenix, and if some of the nonsensical menu decisions were reversed- such as moving 'preferences' from the menu bar and giving it a dedicated icon. The icon is a good idea, yeah. But really, WHY does the icon mean it is no longer in the top menu bar? Just randomly moving stuff around, deleting menus and adding icons, making things harder to use for people moving from an older version of your UI is the cardinal sin of UI design. You wanna move things? Make transitional UI's. Get people used to the text menu and the icon, then finally just the icon.
Also the people saying those that like the V1 UI are clinging to old technology, V1 needs to die, and such.. A UI =/= 'technology'. A great example of this is Windows. Winodws 7 has almost nothing in common with windows 95, insofar as how it works under the hood. But someone who's used windows 95 could pick up windows 7 and with a minimum of effort, use it well. The reason Firestorm/V2/V3 is so hated, is it's essentially taken that Windows 95 interface, and replaced it with Mac OSX's interface. It's still a GUI, but it's too radically different for people to adapt to quickly
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ReplyDeleteAll these people going on about how great viewer2 is, obviously are not content creators. Trying to do something as simple as create clothing layers is an excersize in frustration.
ReplyDeleteSince the leader of the phoenix site is so adamantly opposed to phoenix, for me, its time to switch to cool vl viewer. At least its builder is dedicated to maintaining it and keeping it up with the latest dodads and hoohaws.
@Rhialto Wylder.Well acualy i am a content creator and i find skins / eyes / layers / prim builds / mesh and sculpys extreamly easy to make with in v3. Has to be said it wasnt easy at first however it you acualy bother to sit doan and acualy use it and are willing to learn and adapt then very quickly it becomes easy, This is the problem with most ether they are incapible of learning a new UI or simply they arent trying.
ReplyDeleteAlso the leader of this site i dont think is apposed to Phoenix but i do beleave they relise the limitations that v1.3 viewers have and that the simple fact is no amount of moding will make them work with the changes that linden have planned and will imploment very soon. The leader of this site has acualy been very smart in what they have decided and they atleast recognise that very soon v1.3 viewers will be broken and no amount of moding or importing code will make them work corectly. So in the end these other 3rd party viewer creators that refuse to make a v3 based one will pritty soon find them self with a broken and pritty useless viewer and becuse they havent been smart and looked to the future and switched to v3 code they will not have a stable useable version to replace there curant one and they will die out like somany other viewer projects.
Think of phoenix as an old biplane and then think of trying to bring that into the jet age and up to the same standard. Sure you can mod it adb bits to it to make it jet like but at the end of the day its still a biplane and is still very much limited by its core structure and becuse of this it will never perform as well and will never be as stable as a purpose built jet
@ Wayfinder: I certainly neither doubt your personal experience nor the competence of your tech-friend. But as I don’t consider myself badly informed, I just as certainly may choose whether I think this may or may not be sound knowledge or just surmise and conjecture and thus the whole matter is in truth a viewer-issue or a server-issue or an issue with your hard- and software-configuration or last but not least an arbitrary combination of all that. All of which I don’t think is impossible. Maybe a dev of the Phoenix/Firestorm team can throw some information in here to clarify things.
ReplyDeleteAs to the rest of the statements I’ve just read here, I can only repeat myself: I’m not averse to technological progress, but I am allergic to change for change’s sake. I’ll stick to my assumption that the V2/V3 UI has been knocked together by incompetent or clueless or badly briefed designers and nodded through by just as incompetent or clueless decision-makers who are responsible for the bad briefing. I’ve been working in the advertising and marketing field for 23 years now, and I am still baffled how many amateurs are allowed to run good and well-established products/services into the ground. I take it that the whole V2 thing has been conceived from the marketing end, not from the users’ end, and that’s why they are failing so badly.
*Shrugs* Of course I could turn my back on Second Life and walk away, if I don’t approve of the current developments. But I don’t feel like it yet.
Hello everyone,
ReplyDeleteI may be wasting my time adding another comment waaaaay down here at the (current) end of this size-extra-looooong comment section.... but, here we go....
One of the big causes of angst in this matter is that people do not understand how this whole "3rd party viewer" thing works. Please, allow me to explain a few things that may make it easier to understand why some things are the way they are.
Item 1) Nobody but LL is creating a viewer here.
Each developer of a 3rd party viewer takes the code that LL releases and makes changes to it. To use the obligatory car analogy, think of it as hot rodding. You start with a '57 Chevy, or a '32 Ford Coupe, and you make changes to it to make it go faster, quicker, look better, etc. etc. ad nauseum. But under the changes, it's still a '32 Ford Coupe, mostly.
Phoenix is a hot-rodded Snowglobe viewer.
Firestorm is a hot-rodded Snowstorm viewer.
These are NOT even close to being the same thing, even though both are viewer software. (e.g. A 57 Chevy and a 32 Ford are both classic, cool cars, but the parts are not interchangeable.)
"putting V2/3 backend with a V1 frontend" is asking for a rewrite of the entire system on a scale comparable to writing a new viewer from scratch, which is far beyond the person-hours available to any existing 3rd party viewer project. Back to our hot-rod analogy, we're talking about creating a new car company to mass produce a completely new car model, not customizing an existing car model.
Which leads us to:
Item 2) Henri did something amazing and possibly ridiculous. (Meant in a *very* positive way)
In hot rod terms, he took the guts out of a '08 corvette and managed to reassemble it inside a '32 Ford, and make it mostly work. I think that's freakin' awesome.
I don't think it's a scalable process that can continue to backport every huge functionality change. (I'd be happy to be proven wrong, though.)
Item 3) SL users use their viewers in a wide variety of ways.
Your UI needs are not the same as the next person's UI needs. You do different things in SL, which is the great thing about SL in the first place, right? You get to do whatever you can find or create.
There is no "one true UI".
Scripters, builders, screenshot 'photographers', DJs, models, dancers, noobs, explorers, fashion bloggers, nudists, poseball monkeys, educators, religious leaders, Harley riders, airship pilots, furries, nekos, robots, simboarders, surfers, business folk, real estate magnates, club managers, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. all use the viewer in different ways, for different amounts of time, using different input methods, displayed on different monitor setups, through different vid cards on different operating systems.
So, thank [insert favorite deity here] there are different viewers, and some of them can be customized in useful ways.
I can guarantee you that very few would use the UI the way I do. (I turn every UI element I can OFF, and use keyboard shortcuts to call up whatever I need for the task at hand, then turn it off again. I also use emacs in my daily work.)
So:
Item 4) THANK YOU, 3rd party viewer volunteers.
Your generous donation of your time and work makes thousands of people's lives just a little more fun, easier, or more interesting. Good for you. Don't mind the peanut gallery. All that jazz. People who understand what you do appreciate it.
And in a nearly completely unrelated matter:
Item 5) Whoever that was who made some remark about surprise at a female using a diesel engine analogy can smooch my shapely feminine hindquarters. Some of us XX types can and do understand, use, and create mechanical and/or technical things, and better than you do, you flatheaded Australopithecus.
Gimme a client without any functionality missing from both Firestorm and Phoenix, and with the rendering engine of Firestorm, and i'll be happy; i can live with the Firestorm GUI if necessary
ReplyDeleteSassy, you put a big smile on my face. Well said! :-)
ReplyDeleteCurrently I'm unable to use firestorm because I multitask and it's not multitask friendly for me. It always has low framerate on even low graphics settings and sometimes stops responding for a minute or two. I think the problem is not firestorm but LL's viewer 2 code at fault. It's too much of a resource hog. When I go back to phoenix I have good framerate. I'm glad you're adding mesh to phoenix, but please don't abandon the project. If it's too hard to manage both viewers, pass the project to someone else. Trust me 2.0 is NOT the way of the future for a lot of us. 2.0 is one of the reasons a lot of people switch to a third party viewer. If the phoenix project is abandoned I may have to move to improvidence or singularity. Please keep up the good work and don't shut down phoenix, as it would alienate a lot of your users. I have a gaming rig that can run 3 high quality games at once yet I still have trouble with viewer 2. If you're mind is set on firestorm, at least add in some tweaks to help with framerate and processor load. That would win me over. Plus the remaining features from phoenix that you haven't added yet. Such as inventory backup, particle pointer, custom object rezzing, exc...
ReplyDeleteAnother missing feature i forgot to mention was coded instant messaging. I like my privacy. :)
ReplyDeleteAlthough phoenix - mesh sounds good, I just hope that people do not peeper the support group with moans & groans and put our mentors off side.
ReplyDeletePhoenix is very nice
ReplyDeleteRaymond: "As to the rest of the statements I’ve just read here, I can only repeat myself: I’m not averse to technological progress, but I am allergic to change for change’s sake."
ReplyDeleteI think you and I agree more than I initially thought. I told LL some time ago (when they first charged users with being "resistant to change"):
"We're not against change. We're against OMGWT* change."
So I certainly echo your sentiment and very much agree with your recent post.
@Sassy: Good post. But using your analogy... no matter what engine you put in the vehicle, you can paint it any color you like. Most of the people I read who dislike V2/3 fall into two categories:
1) They hate hate hate the UI (I'm one of them... tremendously bad UI, and like Raymond, I've been in the business for decades)
2) It's a resource hog and tremendously slams computers. I've got a quad core burner of a computer and even I can see performance problems with v2/3. I can't imagine how it affects less-powerful systems.
So while it may be tricky... I don't think it's impossible to totally change the V2/3 interface to something more SANE. I mean, that's what TPVs have done with V1 for years. Sure, changing the guts may be a bit more difficult... but the UI? Should be a piece of cake there. And once that UI is changed (hoping of course, the code is modular as it should be)... well, don't need to re-paint the car every month, right?
In all of this the one thing that comes to my attention is a fact: Linden Lab themselves admitted the V2/3 project was done wrong, big mistake on their part, they won't do that again, etc etc. They *admitted* V2/3 was a problem. But did they do anything at all to fix that? LOL, of course not.
It's kind of like the guy who slams into the back of your car, apologizes, then slams into you again and drives off, leaving us to deal with the mess.
I recognize that people can "get used to" the V2/3 interface. That doesn't negate the fact that LL trashed an interface that had been used for years by almost a million people. It doesn't negate the fact that the vast majority of SL users do not like / hate the V2/3 interface.
We are not resistant to change. As Raymond says, we're resistant to change for the sake of change. I am resistant to change that does more harm than good. I'm resistant to change that throws years of operational method out the window and that thumbs LL nose at paying customers.
So I'll say it again: If someone wants the entire industry to change to V2/3... then fix the sucker and give us a UI that works. That's all we ask. I don't think anyone here is against progress. But the emphasis is on *progress*... not dumping years of operational procedure for a trashy UI. If they want us to gravitate away from Phoenix and more toward Firestorm... fine. Good. I'm all for that... IF Firestorm is better than Phoenix. So MAKE Firestorm better than Phoenix.
Imo, that doesn't mean duplicating the mess Linden Lab made with V2/3. If I want to use V2/3... I'll use V2/3. If I'm going to use Firestorm... it has to be considerably better than V2/3 or Phoenix. That's not going to come about by duplicating V2/3 UI.
If I'm missing something there, I welcome someone pointing that out... but I'm of the opinion the reason we used TPVs is so that we have a better viewer than what LL dishes out.
Well I am not sure what to think. LL can't leave well enough alone and all the developers cant leave phoenix well enough alone or tweak the systems. Some of us cannot afford expensive computers. Mine is over 10 yrs old and came with PCI Plus port for an nvidia card I up graded my ram and find this is an SSE2 machine. That being said I was fortunate. Others aren't instead of being like microsoft and LL serve the least of your users. Improve it. If all else fails I will probably only use METAbolt then. A none graphics chat client to chat with my friends on sl.
ReplyDelete"For the rest of the UI you just need one or two days to get used to it."
ReplyDeleteTo be honest... I hate the UI of anything V2/V3 based that I've seen so far. Even doing all the "undocking" and changing of things, I still can't find stuff in the menus. I'm sad that a change had to include completely revamping the UI. I've been bouncing back and forth from FS & PH for a while, because I know eventually I'll have to use FS, but certain things, like not being able to search notecards... drives me batty.
I've used a V1 interface for over 4 years, and grew to love the extra features that PH added in. FS is not just learning a new interface, it's un-learning the old one, and it's a little painful.
Some people can consider this to be "whining", but for someone that's been building & scripting in the same UI for 4 years, it's a little hard for me to adapt to certain things, and it's frustrating when I have to stop in the middle of a project to force myself to look in the NEW place for what I'm trying to do. Kinda kills the flow of the work, ya know?
Just my 2 cents.
Well I am not sure what to think. LL can't leave well enough alone and all the developers cant leave phoenix well enough alone or tweak the systems.
ReplyDeleteThey are tweaking them, to take advantage of new technology. Expecting phoenix to stay static is asking for it to die.
Some of us cannot afford expensive computers.
Every year? no, every 5 years or 7? yes. In case you haven't noticed, you can get a reasonable computer for about 500 bucks. Thats like 100 dollars a year to save up. It amazes me people will spend thousands or more on a car, but complain about a few hundred on a computer. Most dont drive 10 year old cars, but have no issue going with a 10 year old computer...
Mine is over 10 yrs old
Thats a problem then. Why should everyone else deal with slower performance because some have decade old hardware? its not really fair to those that actually do upgrade their hardware
Others aren't instead of being like microsoft and LL serve the least of your users.
in the computer business you can expect your computer to run most programs for 5 to 7 years, at which point you need a new PC. Its not fair to tel those that do buy new hardware that they cant have new features because people dont want to upgrade their hardware thats a decade old. its not fair. After a certain point its time to tell people to upgrade
I just recall that Linden Lab had outsourced the UI development and that they have cut down on staff by one third quite a while back. Thus I’m much afraid that they are too short of money and of manpower to do anything substantial about the interface. Apart from them (i. e., the top guys) prolly having a bloody hard time admitting that they’ve committed an absolutely ludicrous blunder here, both from a marketing and a technological standpoint (regarding the UI, I’m not talking about the engine).
ReplyDeleteAnd yet another remark as to the current state of affairs what with Firestorm: the devs have already tweaked the UI for the better considerably, and in a way that it's highly customizable (which is a quality in itself -- the more options, the better). The only reason why I personally still prefer Phoenix is that some keyboard shortcuts are still missing and a few much beloved Phoenix features. But that’s all about it. Rather cosmetic. Those who keep whining much here I suspect of not having taken a close enough look at Firestorm and of not having thoroughly played with the options it already has to offer. Do I really have to point out that one has to adapt Firestorm to the peculiarities of one’s own software and hardware configuration? I hope not! Sorry, guys, but there’s no way of circumventing that…
@Serith
ReplyDeleteYour absolutly right every day i see someone complain about how V3 needs more system resorses or dusnt perform as well as the older ones. Then you dig deaper and find that there comp is out of date and the graphics card is only a basic onboard (not designed for gameing). People jsut dont get it that Software progresses rapidly and with every new release it requiers a more powerfull PC think of windows early windows needed like 50meg ram were as windows 7 needs 1000meg of ram minimum thats just the price of progress and advancment. I do feal sorry for those that cant aford to upgrade but at the same time you cant exspect others (the larger comunity) to be heald back aswell
My computer is only 2 years old, and i have a 1GB Nvidia card that's relatively a recent model. I have 8GB ram, and a quad core processor. Yet V2 gives me low framerate if i try to multitask it with another game. And don' tell me "well don't do that then", because i usually only come on SL to voice chat with friends while i go play evercrack or something. The point here is V2 take a lot more of your system then V1. And all it gives you for that is mesh capability and a new cluttered interface. Nothing else seems different to me. There are no awesome features from V2 that couldn't have been added to V1.
ReplyDelete@wolfee
ReplyDeletewell one thing you dont tell us is what model your graphics card is for all we know it could be the lowest of the range we dont know all i know for a fact is i have tri core phoenom with a 2 year old nvidi GTX 260 card and only 4gig of ram and firestom performs flawlelsly for me with high frame raits even when heavy multytasking ie firstorm / blender / firfox / IMVU and IE / medial player all running at the same time. So if my pc is semingly less powerfull then why dus it work for me with out issues ? could it be your pc isnt as powerfull or your grafics cars is simply the lowes spec posable ie only a GT standard which is very basic. Also when i tested the memory usage and cpu consumption compared to phoenix some time back for another forum i noted that there was little diforance between the 2 i think firestorm used 100 meg more ram but consumed (and 100 meg is nothing) the same amount of cpu time. So any staitment that staits that firestorm needs huge amounts of more resorcess is simply not true.
Also it is also a fact that the v3 firestorm UI is no more cluttered than the phoeinx UI. I suspect you havent botherd to use i let alon take the time to use the menus or customise it if have bothered to do this then you would see that the ui is no more clutered than the phoenix UI again this is simple fact . this isnt to say things havent been renamed and moved around compared to phoenix but again this is minor things and anyone willing or capable to learn will pick up these changes very quickly
@Wayfinder:
ReplyDeleteThanks for your reasonable perspective. I do think I can respond to a few points, and hopefully add another bit of useful perspective.
Let me preface this by saying that I am not a contributor to any 3rd party viewer, but I have often downloaded and built 3rd party viewers from source, so I have at least that much understanding of how they are made. Also, I am a professional software developer and have some idea of the difficulties of turning what the users want into something that actually exists and works.
Good post.
Why, thank you :)
But using your analogy... no matter what engine you put in the vehicle, you can paint it any color you like.
We are discussing the adding and changing of functionality. That's rather more than a paint job. Things that are easy to describe are not always easy or even possible to build.
Most of the people I read who dislike V2/3 fall into two categories:
1) They hate hate hate the UI (I'm one of them... tremendously bad UI, and like Raymond, I've been in the business for decades)
AMEN. I was early on the 'I hate V2' bandwagon, and haven't changed my opinion one iota. The v2/v3 UI has gotten incrementally better, but it started out so awful it had no way else to go...
2) It's a resource hog and tremendously slams computers. I've got a quad core burner of a computer and even I can see performance problems with v2/3. I can't imagine how it affects less-powerful systems.
This seems to be less than completely consistent. It is true that it requires more machine than the 1.5/1.23 codebase, but I know folks with inexpensive or older rigs that manage with it. Others aren't as lucky, but it might be combinations of hardware/OS/drivers that produce the really bad anecdotes. It is a shame that folks that want to participate are held back by the hardware they can afford, but we are talking about a graphically intensive 3d world that loads on the fly, which is pretty darned amazing to me to have working on any computer an individual can afford. Personally, I spent a little bit to build a better rig specifically for SL purposes. I scavenged as much as I could from computers I already had, and bought new parts on sale at newegg. Probably spent ~$400, which is less than I spent on new SL outfits over the two years that I've had the (mostly) new machine. I know that I am blessed to have the resources for that, and certainly don't look down on those who don't. There's just not an easy answer for it - it takes a certain level of hardware/software performance to achieve what this thing does.
So while it may be tricky... I don't think it's impossible to totally change the V2/3 interface to something more SANE. I mean, that's what TPVs have done with V1 for years.
And so, we have firestorm, and the other v2/3 based TPVs. Doing just that. It just doesn't happen overnight with a small volunteer team. I'm amazed at how far firestorm has already come, although I am impatient for more just like the rest of you, including the firestorm devs!
Sure, changing the guts may be a bit more difficult... but the UI? Should be a piece of cake there.
Whoa, Nelly! Piece of cake? Hardly.
Go download the snowstorm code, and see if you can even find the UI bits. Now wave that piece of cake wand over it and make it do all of the things it took years of effort from the emerald and then phoenix teams to accomplish with the 1.x codebase. It's just not that easy.
To be continued...
... continuing from last post
ReplyDeleteAnd once that UI is changed (hoping of course, the code is modular as it should be)...
Keep hoping. It isn't working yet.
well, don't need to re-paint the car every month, right?
Unfortunately, yes, actually, sometimes you do, because we aren't talking about a static codebase to start from. The firestorm devs are adding customizations to a product that keeps changing under them, often breaking things they already had working.
In all of this the one thing that comes to my attention is a fact: Linden Lab themselves admitted the V2/3 project was done wrong, big mistake on their part, they won't do that again, etc etc. They *admitted* V2/3 was a problem. But did they do anything at all to fix that? LOL, of course not.
And so the firestorm team and the other TPV teams come along, trying to fix it, and fix it, and fix it, while continually catching grief from the people who are benefiting from their endless unpaid work.
It's kind of like the guy who slams into the back of your car, apologizes, then slams into you again and drives off, leaving us to deal with the mess.
Trust me, that's exactly how the devs feel, both from LL and from the users. Slammed, over and over, often without the "sorry".
I recognize that people can "get used to" the V2/3 interface. That doesn't negate the fact that LL trashed an interface that had been used for years by almost a million people. It doesn't negate the fact that the vast majority of SL users do not like / hate the V2/3 interface.
Yep, that's why the firestorm team is working their little tushies off trying to make it good. They aren't there yet, but they've sure come a long way in a short time. I have my firestorm UI looking and operating almost like my old phoenix UI, for the things that I do. I know it is missing things that other people like and are used to. It also has things that phoenix does not, so it's a bit of a trade-off, depending on your needs. Thankfully, we still have a bunch of other viewers out there for the folks that can't yet use firestorm.
We are not resistant to change. As Raymond says, we're resistant to change for the sake of change. I am resistant to change that does more harm than good. I'm resistant to change that throws years of operational method out the window and that thumbs LL nose at paying customers.
Agreed, wholeheartedly. However, we aren't on LL's website here. The firestorm team didn't create this UI, they're trying to fix it.
*sigh* I apologize for the length of this.
To be continued, again...
...and, continuing, again
ReplyDeleteSo I'll say it again: If someone wants the entire industry to change to V2/3... then fix the sucker and give us a UI that works. That's all we ask. I don't think anyone here is against progress. But the emphasis is on *progress*... not dumping years of operational procedure for a trashy UI. If they want us to gravitate away from Phoenix and more toward Firestorm... fine. Good. I'm all for that... IF Firestorm is better than Phoenix. So MAKE Firestorm better than Phoenix.
Working on it. Seriously.
Imo, that doesn't mean duplicating the mess Linden Lab made with V2/3. If I want to use V2/3... I'll use V2/3. If I'm going to use Firestorm... it has to be considerably better than V2/3 or Phoenix. That's not going to come about by duplicating V2/3 UI.
Let me reiterate - the Firestorm team did not create this UI. They start with what LL creates, and apply customizations. They have to add things and fix things and change things, and make it all work, usually better than the original, but it dang well takes time and effort and testing and retesting and release after release as they go along.
If I'm missing something there, I welcome someone pointing that out... but I'm of the opinion the reason we used TPVs is so that we have a better viewer than what LL dishes out.
Without meaning any disrespect, because your concerns are real and valid, I do think you've missed something. Once again, Firestorm IS v2 (and now v3), with customizations. It is not a copy, not a ground up rebuild, not an imitation. They start from where LL leaves off, and make it better.
The vast majority of complaints about Firestorm would be more correctly aimed at Linden Labs, who actually wrote the code that people dislike. The TPV teams are on OUR side, fixing the things we hate about v2/3, instead of just complaining about them like most of us (myself included) do.
So, I hope that helps clarify a few things, and I do hope I didn't come across too snarky or didactic. I just get frustrated seeing these hardworking folks blamed for the mess someone else made, and they are trying to clean up, without a paycheck or even so much as a tip from the folks who get to enjoy the fruits of their labors.
(And I promise to shut up now.)
Okay, I totally understand the diesel engine analogy for Phoenix. What I don't understand is why you have to change the UI for Firestorm (which is why I wish Phoenix were back). This Firestorm UI is so bad. I have hated it since day one and have forced myself to use it and hate it just as much today as I did when I started. Why does improvement always mean reinventing the UI wheel? People get used to things and find the most efficient methods to accomplish their goals. So every time "Bill Gates" decides to reinvent the wheel, we have to literally reinvent our working habits. While under the hood, I can see, is better in Firestorm, the UI still is pretty bad. I would really love to find out who originally came up with this UI and ask them who they talked to before they decided on a design. Oh well...guess some things will NEVER change. I don't guess those of us who use it matter so much. Thanks LL for being the originator!
ReplyDelete@Laney
ReplyDeleteWell the early v1.3 viewer that phoenix was based on was developed in house at linden labs. However that was at a time when they had more staff and greater profit income. However since they have cut back hugely on staff it was not only finantialy im posable but they also lacked manpower to develop there own v2. So they outsourced the development to an indipendent software developer it was this developer that ultimaitly designed the UI however in the end its not them thats ultimaitly responcible the blame lays with those at LL that reviewed the viewer after it was developed and then gave it the green light. However they for some reason that only they know they didnt and now were stuck with it and the firestorm team have been fighting for months to make it useable and i think that they are pritty much there.
Why can't/couldn't anyone that makes these viewers have left the way the v1 viewer was set up and still incorporate the new stuff. Why does all the stuff you used all the time, have to be buried in some stupid flyout thingy. I don't have the first clue how to make a viewer, but was it necessary to change it's looks?
ReplyDeleteI love Phoenix because of it's ease of use. If you don't want to keep working on Phoenix, make firestorm look like it, and make the option for it to look like viewer2 optional. I think someone else suggested that too.
I appreciate all your hard work. TY and Ty Henri
@Sassy: I think you answered a whole lot of questions, and in a respectful manner. You certainly addressed a lot of my concerns and comments.
ReplyDeleteI do wish to point out I in no way intended (nor intend) to slam the Phoenix/Firestorm devs in any way. My "bad UI" comments were aimed at LL with a little side suggestion to not make the same mistakes they've made.
But as you explained (and very well), because of curve balls that LL keeps throwing at devs (and very likely, at their own techs), it becomes very difficult to update a TPV, very difficult to maintain fixes already made, very difficult to provide an alternative UI to what LL shoves at us.
So that throws it all back into LL's lap... and explains a lot of why that grid went from growing like crazy... to stagnating for the last three years. It's a shame really.
So thanks for your excellent reply Sassy. I think you helped explain quite a bit about what's going on dev-side. I've said more than once that I don't know why TPV devs do what they do (for free, even)-- but we out here surely appreciate it, appreciate all the effort, and appreciate that it gives us an alternative to LL viewers.
Because frankly, if I were forced to use LL viewer 2/3, I'd only be logging onto SL very briefly, just to conduct business and nothing more, and we'd cut our eight sims down to one.
Oh wait... that's already the case. :D
Ah well, LL brought that on themselves. As for the Phoenix / Firestorm group, I do appreciate your efforts. All I wish to say is "don't be too quick to boot Phoenix". Still a lot of folks using it, still a lot of folks that prefer the V1 interface, and like you point out Sassy, development on Firestorm is steady, but slow (for several reasons).
Give folks some time to adapt, give Firestorm time to develop, and as the core theme of this blog stated as its main theme: thanks for putting mesh in Phoenix. I know it takes a bit more time to keep supporting Phoenix, but I also think it should be the customers who help decide when Firestorms is to the point Phoenix is no longer required. That time will come. The #1 mistake LL has made for years: they refuse to listen to and respect the customers.
As is evident in this blog... that's not the case with this group. So I encourage that. Keep in touch with the customers. When Firestorm is where customers want it to be, I think the customers will let everyone know. : )
A humble request to everybody: pray don’t use the term »customer« for users of TPVs. It might raise wrong expectations and sport inappropriate attitudes on the user-side. Most TPV devs will certainly listen to what the beneficiaries of the results of their troubles have to say, but they are by no means obliged to do so. They are not selling a product, they are volunteering benefactors of the Second Life community. One should keep that in mind all the time. Users of TPVs are not in the position to demand anything of the devs. That simply is so.
ReplyDelete@ Raymond Martinek
ReplyDeleteI would disagree becuse a customer is someone that uses a service be it a payed service or a free service and while yes this dusnot give us the right to out right benamd change or features it dus however give us the right as customers / users if you profure the right to put our sudgestions / coments / feature changes across to them and while yes they dont have to listen but at the end of the day its realy in there best intrest to do so becuse if the majority ask for a feature and are ignored then those people will simply go to someone that can provide what they want.
So realy users have more power and influence than they relise becuse at the end of the day its about the user count that proves the popularity and securs the future of that viewer and if they ignore people then they will loose users to other more reseptive projects and a viewers that are loosing users have no future.
However people have to be reasonable with there requests for features and changes and alow for reasonable time for it to be implomented and this is something that all these people that demand change to the UI dont understand.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI almost hate to respond to the "don't use customer" suggestion, but... they are customers, regardless of who they are customers of / for.
ReplyDeleteIf I walk into WallyWorld and and speak to a shopper, I'm speaking to a "customer", regardless of the fact he's not MY customer.
Users of TPVs are customers of somebody-- be it Linden Lab, Inworldz, whatever. OpenSim might be excluded from the "customer" tab, but I really don't think it's wrong to use "customer" as general label. "User" might be more accurate... but I never have liked the term "user". It's so... negative.
You're a USER. bleh. :D
So user, customer, whatever, "the whole purpose of language is to be understood." -- Confucius ;)
To be franky honest, I HATE the viewer 2 interface. I have tried to use it for building, I have tried to use third party viewer 2 viewers for building. It's like trying to play TF2 on a flip-top cell phone. The fact that someone has gone through the effort to backport mesh into a v1 viewer should be a sign to everyone that people realy do hate viewer 2, even with it's new features. Decideing to abandon Phoenix because Firestorm is newer smacks of the 'ooh! shinny!' syndome. And yes, I know this sounds rather rude, but I am being honest here.
ReplyDelete@TheDeinonychus said...
ReplyDeleteTo be franky honest, I HATE the viewer 2 interface. I have tried to use it for building, I have tried to use third party viewer 2 viewers for building. It's like trying to play TF2 on a flip-top cell phone. The fact that someone has gone through the effort to backport mesh into a v1 viewer should be a sign to everyone that people realy do hate viewer 2, even with it's new features. Decideing to abandon Phoenix because Firestorm is newer smacks of the 'ooh! shinny!' syndome. And yes, I know this sounds rather rude, but I am being honest here.
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Well to be honest i dont get what your talking about realy becuse the build tools and interface in firestorm v3 looks exactly the same as the pne in phoenix and it has the very same build tools.
The reason why they have been forced to back port mesh into phoenix is not becuse its a good thing to do its quite simply becuse people have proven them selfs compleatly incapeable of adapting to the new UI something that is very easy to do when you spend alittle time with it. This is just human nature to hate or reject change however this is easily over come by wanting to learn new and adapt to new things but you have to want to learn and from the many people i have spoken to it all comes downt to the fact that they dont want to learn a new UI so they resist change. Its simmple fact that phoenix is a dieing viewer as is all v1.3 veiwers so in the end people can resist all they like but very soon if tey wish to ahve any quality experiance on sl they will have no option to move to v3.
Firestorm can already be made to look so much like Phoenix that I'm a little unsure what people's real gripes are.
ReplyDeleteThe next release should be able to look even more like Phoenix. For those who can't abide any changes at all, it will never look exactly the same. There are things that V2 makes so difficult to change that doing so would be a nightmare to maintain with every update. You all are welcome to wallow around in V1 style viewers until LL truely breaks them or blocks them (which I figure they are going to have to do to stop the devs of some of the smaller viewers from continuing to foist off worse and worse code kludges on those refusing to change.
Phoenix is one of the best things I've experienced in 12 years of being online. Firestorm is great too. I don't dislike (hate) LL's Viewer 2 as far as the interface goes. What's really bad is having to search using the built-in browser. That's the thing that ruins V2 and Firestorm for me, and it's LL's fault. I'm glad Phoenix is sticking to their guns about not having web profiles in Firestorm. I wish it was possible to do that with Search too.
ReplyDeleteYou people busy bitching about how v2/v3-based viewers suck massively deserve to be left in the dust.
ReplyDeleteI grabbed Firestorm the moment it supported mesh. I had become frustrated with v3 constantly causing my graphics drivers to stop responding and recover, and unfortunately, the first FS mesh release did the exact same thing. In the meantime, of course, I went back to Phoenix.
HOWEVER, when the 'hotfix' version was put out, I decided to try it again. Not one such crash since.
I'll agree the sidebar was a horrendous idea, and it was even MORE egregious in the beta v2, as it not only jumped on your screen when you tried to do anything, it also monkeyed with the field of view when it did show up. That literally gave me headaches. LL fixed that later on, and the sidebar became simply a nuisance.
Obviously, I run with the Phoenix UI default, and for 90% of what I do, it's just fine. Is it all the way there yet? Of course not. But there's really only two things I'd want before I can say 'FS is exactly like Phoenix, but better':
1) Actually SAVE UI element positioning. Things move back to default positions as if there wasn't any way to save things. The minimap is the worst offender, showing up right in the middle of the screen when brought up after a relog.
2) This was mentioned before, but let us use the Windows 'shortcut' of typing a partial object/folder name to quickly move the selection to the first matching instance again. The lack of this behavior indicates that LL considers System Folders to Top to be the only 'proper' inventory view, and is, IMO, wrong. I do get frustrated having to use keys or the scrollbar to navigate a long folder listing, praying I can get there quickly enough that the view won't jump to the previous selection and lose my progress.
All this said, I WILL be getting the new Phoenix when it comes out, as a back-up viewer, but I'd also recommend that if the update can be made mandatory, DO IT. Then there will be absolutely no excuse for the grid to be unable to see mesh.
Dear Lady Lyon,
ReplyDeletein your article you write:
"Secondly, Make no mistake.. V1 is still on it's deathbed."
Considering that I use since it's inceptions Dale's Viewer due to it's anaglyph 3D capability, which is still lacking on V2 viewers, and the V2 UI which, from an interface-designers point of view is still broken, it might be that V1 viewers are o ntheir deathbed.
But my personal opinion is that V2+ series viewers were born dead.
Unless there is a huge interface overhaul and a restoration of basic functionality ( such as full screen display ) V2 viewers are nothing more than a emergency fix to an early alpha stage project to me.
But I am pretty drastic in my opinions, so I am aware there are people of different opinion.
Of all the V2+ series viewers, Firestorm is the most usable, no doubt there, so I congratulate you and your team wholeheartedly to your work.
But like Dale's Viewer which has serious issues with sculpted prims, but offers for all the rest an unparalleled performance - perception of depth - I rather skip a few features some consider vitally important over a whole lot of features I find vitally important.
Besides, I agree completely with Sharie Criss.
As for JB: Well, there are plenty of people that found Windows 95 being unusable ( or earlier versions of Windows ) and thus went straight to the many alternatives that were always around.
Similar situation for V1/V2 issues: V1 viewers just worked for all, V2 only for some. Those may happily use them, noone will be bothering them. But those able to make a decision are often enough deciding differently, and
all the marketing in the world, all death-mouthing of the alternatives, will do but little to change those peoples opinion and their decision.
I like to compare it with the situation on the operating-system-market, where the "dinosaurs", the *ix compatible systems are clawing their way upward again, with MacOS, Linux in all it's flavours, but also 'small' systems such as Android ( running on a Linux kernel ) gaining ground against the "V2" series of products from Microsoft, which came to dethrone the 'new dinos' ancestors, Unix most of all.
Like V2, Microsoft is to stay.
But like Android, it might be a very smart move to combine the tested and proven of the V1 interface with the possibilities of the new background-engine of the V2 viewers.
Icegod says that there is a "phoenix UI" mode in Firestorm. That is nice, but I went over it several times, and didn't find it.
Yes, there is a Youtube video on the matter - but the result just looks like Firestorm looks like anyways - which is , V2 minus the serious design errors.
I'll have an eye on Firestorm, and until it gets usable for my needs I'll stick with Dale's Viewer for area exploration, Phoenix for casual play and Imprudence 1.4 for Photography.
@ John David Briley
ReplyDeleteAcualy there is away to have the search window open in an external browser in firestorm. If you open the search windown and look to the top right there is a button there to open in an exteranl window alturnativly all you can do is use the link below then book mark it
http://search.secondlife.com/viewer/search/?q=&p=U3XzM2zbfVRyF2Szjqpxmqeh7lAEjlJtkXjVIhG4b8ZeY_wJcrme3KwMMuyfhUH4al2tSQd6F5q_NVQB_cTgss8YVuUXrWYhjW4PWArmQ7nL1l7kpq2TQlMIb3Dsx7C1bLvAD9CiBvMNohyrh5IN_UfiMdwWYg7ojWdBTIllHVy-dn4VykCOiJsr5gHqhJELVf6lB5fxDu88au_iP_-9jp5_CL11WJHWxtEuJzz77FcYH-dLfmK20D7FINOStpnnofn3JgxD_hlv6eFxaVsOrO2OhKFHR77vVuDm_agbGQdOzo8QLhKFb2GYuvhm8Vr3pk_OF24jh_uPgR6UqP0n8q4GfHZqOaOtzaeSlLosst1IvT2W4-aCGN41hzB-3-iI&r=42&lang=en&sid=dadb67a7-5572-49b0-ada5-b8bb26c171fe
I have used firestorm a few times but it still has a lot of work to do. it ain't perfect and unfortunately it never will be. there will always be bugs no matter what.
ReplyDeleteI am not a fan of V2 and never will be....IT SUCKS big time. It will never be liked......(except for a view and the newbs that don't don't know any better)
I loved snow globe but alas the powers that be chose to go away from it. I had to go to phoenix and I love it.....it's perfect (bugs not included) and I it has a lot of possibilities.....if only they will allow it to happen.
But that is just my opinion!!!!
My thoughs on giving up viewer 1 and going to viewer 2. I tried, originally when viewer 2 first came out I tried it, but I kept getting a "DNS cannot resolve host name error". A year later I tried it again and it worked. I used it up to version 2.5 and got the DNS error again. I tried every fix I could find, changing my DNS, clearing my DNS cache and the list goes on. No version even Firestorm will work for me. I have no clue what causes it, and I read some people on the SL forums having the same issues. So unless something changes if Phoenix and viewer 1 goes away, so does my SL experience.
ReplyDeleteA brief synopsis of repeated posts on this thread:
ReplyDeleteMy.Opinion: Anyone who doesn't like V2/3 is resistant to change and needs to move forward.
Numerous.Users: No, we're not resistant to change. There are many reasons we don't like V2/3 such as...
My.Opinion: No, you're resistant to change.
Numerous.Users: No... we TRIED V2/3, spent a lot of time testing it, and think it sux.
My.Opinion: No no, you're resistant to change.
Numerous.Users: We're not resistant to change. We earnestly feel LL made a major error in taking a UI that had been used for years, totally scrapping it, and replacing it with a UI 80% of their customer base has rejected for the past three years.
My.Opinion: I tell you, you're resistant to change.
Numerous.Users: Are you even listening? Some 750,000 users were adapted to and used V1 every day, for everything from entertainment to full-time business... and LL decided to change the entire flippin' interface to a stillbirth of a product...
My.Opinion: I say you're just resistant to change.
Numerous.Users: We told you we're not resistant to change. We simply have a clue as to what a good UI should be, and V2/3 doesn't even come close. We told LL that over and over but they totally ignored the vast majority of their customers and foisted off on the populace a system they themselves later admitted was a bad idea.
My.Opinion: I adapted to V2/3 so you should too. You're just resistant to change.
Numerous.Users: I really don't want to be rude, but I'm starting to think I'm talking to a flippin' moron. Read my lips. WE'RE NOT RESISTANT TO CHANGE. WE'RE RESISTANT TO OMG WT@@#$# CHANGE and numerous massive problems in the V2/3 system...
My.Opinion: You don't have any idea what you're talking about. Your beliefs and opinions are irrelevant and you're living in the dark ages. V2/3 is obviously better because it's NEWER!
Numerous.Users: Am I on Candid Camera?
... does that about sum it up?
Sorry wayfinder but your so wrong you can't even see it. I love change and the newest thing, I but my nerdy tech toys when ever possible. Change is good.. when it actually improves things.
ReplyDeleteI even use Firestorm on a regular basis. My biggest real beef is the toasts and that craptastic chat setup I prefer to use and will continue to use a V1 system until someone makes a V2 based viewer that uses it.
I prefer the looka and feel of Phoenix it has absolutly nothing to do with resisting change.
The one thing I most like about V2 is the defaut graphics look, I love that graphite look but the viewer itself feels flimsy, probably due to the fact it's not a viewer at all but a web browser trying to do what only a true client can do.
Everyone has their preferences and no one not you not me or any of the other arrogant twits bashing each other on this thread or any other has the right to be doing it.
We don't give a rats behind about your need to bash your views into others heads until they see it your way.
Grow up.
I for one am sticking with Phoenix and Not viewer 2 based viewer for now... One Viewer 2 code seems to run a lot slower then Viewer 1. Two the darkness of viewer 2 viewers isnt great at all.
ReplyDeleteSo whilst i have an option to either enjoy second life or lag a lot more i would choose to enjoy it...
i see it as... Microsoft made Vista... and many didnt like vista... so they made Windows 7.... where as Linden Labs made viewer 2 then make 2 viewer 2's...
anyway not saying firestorm is bad... but might try it when it comes out of beta.
Glory: "Sorry wayfinder but your so wrong... Everyone has their preferences and no one not you not me or any of the other arrogant twits bashing each other on this thread or any other has the right to be doing it. We don't give a rats behind about your need to bash your views into others heads until they see it your way.
ReplyDeleteGlory: "I prefer the looka and feel of Phoenix it has absolutly nothing to do with resisting change."
Glory, did you take time to read my post, or just glace over it and decide to call everyone else arrogant twits? You seem to have totally misunderstood the purpose of that summary.
If you had read the post thoroughly, you'd note my post is FOR Phoenix, not against it. I've misread posts before so I know how it is, but slow down, take a breath, and take time to understand what people are saying here. I understand this is a semi-charged issue. Which is part of the point I was making.
The whole point of that post is simple: people have a right to their own opinions, a large number of people dislike V2/3... and no one really has the right / intelligence / omniscience to judge the motives of others. None of us are mind readers. So V2/3 people who state that others are just "resistant to change"-- while in some specific instances are correct-- primarily just parrot the Linden Lab corporate line. Such views aren't based on reality, what other people are telling them, or the vast majority opinion that V2/3 isn't all that spiffy.
You talk about other people needing to bash their views into other people's heads... but then take the same route yourself. Seriously?
Re-read the post... thoroughly. Get the real sense of it, then come back and we'll talk. ; )
There's no need to argue about any of this because it's all moot. Linden Labs has stopped supporting V1. They're not going to resume supporting V1. The TPV's won't be able to support the V1 viewers long term; none of them has the staffing to afford to do that. It is correct that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but in the end it doesn't matter what anyone's opinion is other than Linden Labs. Facts are facts. People can either spend their energies objecting and opining, or go inworld and participate. Have a nice Sunday.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI personally am really tired of all the moan and groan over the dislikes of the V2/ Firestorm UI and features, the Firestorm dev team is trying very hard to do the best job they can but evenually regardless of
ReplyDeletehow much someone hates V2 and likes
V1 in any form they will die, the code in them is old and obsolete
and LL will eventually pull the plug...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think that Linden Lab will pull the plug on V1 TPVs before they are quite certain that the majority of users who find V2 an unattractive solution UI-wise won’t run away. Thus one should not undersestimate how much the success of projects like Firestorm will be crucial for Linden Lab because the new V2-based and heavily tweaked TPVs will hopefully keep those afore-mentioned users in line (and online). That’s by no means a small issue.
ReplyDeleteBtw: seeing that between 30,000 and 80,000 (absolute peak) users are online at the same time, I simply don’t believe Linden Lab’s figures of one million regular users or thereabouts. It’s maybe half of that. If they are lucky. »Regular users« being a very relative term here anyway. Afair, one exec declared anybody who spend 2 hours per month on Second Life a regular user. I think that’s ridiculous. Those are occasional visitors. Those who bring Linden Lab the bacon (because they spend real money on goods and land) are those who are at least 5 to 10 hours per week inworld (and among them the V2-»haters« are quite numerous, or I am much mistaken). Trial accounts and occasional visitors (by my definition) might brush up Linden Lab’s figures, but that's lame one-trick pony marketing blah-blah. I don’t buy.
Summary: Of course Linden Lab are in charge and can do as they see fit. But they would be well-advised to be very careful as to not pulling their own plug.
Anyway, I’m looking forward to seeing Firestorm in full bloom in the near future.
PHOENIX FOVERER ! PHOENIX FOREVER !
ReplyDeleteRaymond Martinek, you just hit the nail.
ReplyDeleteSeems that LL need to start treating the ones that spend more then 4 hours daily (and there are really lots of them), as the main core of their user base and the ones that will support or deem Sl.
ZZ BOTTOM, do I see some sense of irony here? Hahaha!
ReplyDeleteRaymond Martinek said...
ReplyDeleteI don’t think that Linden Lab will pull the plug on V1 TPVs before they are quite certain that the majority of users who find V2 an unattractive solution UI-wise won’t run away.
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Dont be so sure of that i remmber people sayign the same on another once popular 3D program called IMVU they had literaly millions or real online users till they started makeing odd changes that redused funcunality and deteriated experiance and dispite literaly 150 forum pages and literaly hundreds of thousands of negative posts they were ignored and the changes went ahead. Then came the UI revamp as they called itand to give you an idea for over 6 years the main progrtam resembled msn / Yahoo messenger and when you clicked the name it launched the 3D chat and it was sudenly changed compleatly to a ui that had a negative impact on performance and was hated by literaly all users and yet again people whent to the forum and posted except this time it was over 300 pagers all with user complaints and demands they change it back but again imvu basicly said look we dont care what you want this is what we want leave if you want there are always many more waiting to join.
So i guess the point im trying to make LL will pull mthe plug on v1.3 veuwers when ever they like and regardles of what its users think its just a mater of time.
EQ, I get your idea, and there certainly are plenty of such bad examples around. My rough guess is that Linden Lab simply can’t afford it. I don’t think their CFO is sitting on a pile of money-bags in the backroom.
ReplyDeleteI think the Lindens have managed to make some huge mistakes with their Mesh Viewer, leading to some horrible misbehaviour. And keeping the necessary compatibility in Firestorm seems to have badly set back the project.
ReplyDeleteSince the Phoenix-Mesh approach is using the Cool VL Viewer code. which is the best Mesh viewer available, it might not be so bad.
Long-term, I'll go with Firestorm, no argument, but it isn't completely crazy to see Mesh as the Linden's cunning plan to wreck TPVs.
The Lindens seem to be getting better at cunning plans, but they still look too much like turnips. The current Viewer 3 public beta might not have a major memory leak, but, the way it eats memory, it's quacking like a very large and noisy duck.
Why isn't anyone dealing with the fact that most people's computers don't seem to be able to run Firestorm or V3. I have a newer dual core processor HP and I cant get Firestorm to run worth a damn. This heavy handed "our way or the highway" approach is going to drive people out of SL to places like Inworldz, and in fact I think the migration has started since this announcement about mesh and the horrid way it has started. It is sad that the people who made SL what it is, us the users... are having constant change that is NOT user friendly shoved down our throats. Just my two cents on this.
ReplyDeleteWho decided that people can have two choices..... upgrade their computers or gtfo?
ReplyDeleteCaoilte said...
ReplyDeleteWhy isn't anyone dealing with the fact that most people's computers don't seem to be able to run Firestorm or V3. I have a newer dual core processor HP and I cant get Firestorm to run worth a damn. This heavy handed "our way or the highway" approach is going to drive people out of SL to places like Inworldz, and in fact I think the migration has started since this announcement about mesh and the horrid way it has started. It is sad that the people who made SL what it is, us the users... are having constant change that is NOT user friendly shoved down our throats. Just my two cents on this.
Who decided that people can have two choices..... upgrade their computers or gtfo?
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Well sadly its a computing fact that with new software needs more and more system resorses that dusnt meen its poorly programmed its just the way things move forward. I see you mention your prosseor however altho the prossesor plays a part in running these programs the graphics card is the most importaint part in this case and thats onthing that you didnt post i would be curous to know what make it is what modle is is. Becuse when i used to sell computers all the HP had very basic non gamming graphics cards( as in not desighned to run 3D aplications. So in away its not lindens fault that your comp hasnt been kept up todate with the requiered hardware to run modern 3D aplications. It kinda bugs me when people expect totaly out dated or seriusly underpowered hard ware to run things that the hard ware wasnt designed to run. But sure as you saud why did they have to change well my respoce to that is whay dus anything change i meen if i was to apply your coment to other things we would all still be rideing round in steam powered cars. So yes change has to happen wether its wanted or not its needed to freshen things up af features improve the look and performance however all that comes at the cost of haveing to ahve a modern pc
PHOENIX FOVERER ! PHOENIX FOREVER !
ReplyDeletelol.. thats funny, since my "old" pc is less than 8 months old, I never had any problems running phoenix. So why upgrade to something that forces people to spend hundreds to "modernize" just to stay in a site THEY PAY FOR ALREADY. It's a bad business decision to try and force a "modern" program change on people, assuming that we can all afford to run out and spend hundreds of $'s to upgrade, when we have already invested hundreds into SL. PEOPLE WILL LEAVE. If that's what LL wants, then so be it. We will leave in droves, with our money. Not all of us can afford to buy a new comp or graphics card every 6 months just because high paid programmers keep "modernizing" in order to justify and keep their jobs. Equating these changes to moving from steam powered vehicles to cars is ludicrous.
ReplyDeleteWell, I bought my Mac Pro early 2008 (8-core, 2.8 GHz, RAM 10 GBytes, now a SATA-SSD for a bootdrive) just when it had appeared on the market (Feb, 2008), exchanged the graphics card it came with for a nVidia GeForce GTX 285 in summer of 2009. This configuration is running Phoenix quite well on graphics settings which are well higher than the recommended ones. Same applies to Firestorm, albeit the FPS dropped a little, but it’s still bearable.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone running a low-cost comp, maybe even with less than 4 GBytes of RAM and slow onboard-graphics instead of a »real« dedicated graphics card, really expects to run a high-class 3-D program like the Second Life viewers smoothly, it is really over my head. You woudn't expect a Ford Pinto to beat a Ferrari at the traffic lights, would you? If you want to play technically demanding 3-D games, you must buy hardware that matches these demands. If you fail to do so, don’t blame anybody but yourself.
(I absolutely second what EQ said in his last post, and I think that Caolite is completely mislead here.)
Caoilte said...
ReplyDeletelol.. thats funny, since my "old" pc is less than 8 months old, I never had any problems running phoenix. So why upgrade to something that forces people to spend hundreds to "modernize" just to stay in a site THEY PAY FOR ALREADY. It's a bad business decision to try and force a "modern" program change on people, assuming that we can all afford to run out and spend hundreds of $'s to upgrade, when we have already invested hundreds into SL. PEOPLE WILL LEAVE. If that's what LL wants, then so be it. We will leave in droves, with our money. Not all of us can afford to buy a new comp or graphics card every 6 months just because high paid programmers keep "modernizing" in order to justify and keep their jobs. Equating these changes to moving from steam powered vehicles to cars is ludicrous.
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The age of the PC is not importaint its whats in the pc that is very importaint. We have already found out that its a HP dual core but you still havent told us what memory it has or what graphics card it has. I suspect its only got 2 to 4 gig memory with a basic onboard nividia 6200 graphics card Tho with out a model its hard to know for sure . If it is a 6200 then even tho its a nvidia it is not a gameing spec dedicated card tho it is derived from an old gameing graphics card. You also said you cant aford to upgrade every 6 months well while yes regualarly upgrading is best you do not need to do it so soon and its not as costly as you think. Buying a decent graphics card might dent the bank alittle but can last a few years or more.
You also said its bad buisinies practice to force more demanding programs on people well my reseponce to that is well if its such bad practice why do all companys that maufacture something follow this. companys like microsoft / apple / adobe / games developers Programs like windows / Apple /office / photoshop / games all need more powerfull PCs with every new relese.
From what you have said its basicly sounds like ether you cant upgrade your pc or simply refuse to ther for things like sl should just stand still in there development to acomodate a few while leaveing the greater number looking for improvments that will never come blecuse they have been forsed into a stand still.
Footnote: Inworld I’ve quite often talked with people who planned to get themselves a new comp to achieve better SL-performance. These people were »normal« PC users, i. e. rather computer-illiterate. So they didn’t know much about the importance of graphics cards, RAM-size, etc. I strongly advised them to explicitly tell the sales people at the store what they wanted to use the comp for, in this case quite hardecore 3-D gaming on an OpenGL basis. Some didn’t listen -- and got themselves some common machine which was well suited for the usual office applications. But not at all for Second Life. Well…
ReplyDeleteSummary: There’s a considerable market for dedicated gaming PCs for a reason…
fun note:
ReplyDeleteI have 3 PC:
P4 2.4 GHz, 1GB Ram, GF6600 256MB
C2D 2.1 GHz, 2GB Ram, GF9500, 1GB
AMD Phenom2 6core, 16GB RAM, GF430, 1GB Ram
On all system Phoenix runs like a charm with adequate settings ( between 12 and 40 fps ).
Firestorm runs at slightly lower fps ( 8 to 25 ).
Second Life Viewer 3 beats em all:
0.8 fps to at best 12 fps.
Imprudence, for comparision, runs a bit slower on the weakest, and a tad faster on the high end machine ( 10 fps to 55 fps ) with settings equal to those of Phoenix.
Settings always equal through all viewers per machine.
For me, LindenLabs implementation seems to suck most. but important:
even a 8 year old PC runs SL in every way.
Well it seems to me, you have strayed from the whole purpose you started out with, when the demise of Emerald came along, You (Jessica) pop up and grab the ones in the Dev group you were able to, in order to keep a Viewer going that the People liked using and the group, making it happen, listened to them. not like LL just doing what they wanted regardless of what the majority of people wanted both free and premium users included in that count,for you doing that I applaude you Jessica. Now in the last bit of time you have taken a complete three sixty turn around from your previous stance, dont say it is the future and we have to keep up, when your Dev team knows it doesnt have to be this way,you may snowball and dance a jig around all those that use the viewers and dont know anything about XML or even heard of cmake or any other number of apps used in the development process,but to those of us that know it and use it everyday you cant bullshit, we know better and I like others as myself correct bugs in the viewers ourselves that we use, but dont share the fixes with others, because of the headaches that go with it and our RL jobs that consume most of our time.
ReplyDeleteJust to make a summary it is easier to port changes needed to keep up with LL into a user interface similiar to V1 viewers, than the task you are trying to undertake,with the route your going your Dev team has to take anything LL comes up with new and rework it and patch it and then try to make additional features work, so it looks as if you have an entirely different product, thats why the work coming out now is so buggy and will continue to be that way, on the same note it didnt take nine months to backport mesh into Henri's Viewer, and he is one man alone and bowwing others open source patches just as you do with your projects,and I will state now that with Phoenix I crash at least ten or more times in an evening and with CoolVL I have never crashed at all even with his mesh viewer, same computer same settings,and my computer is a super PC that most people would love to have, the reason for this is the programming I have to do at home, and the extensive encryption/decryption that I perform, so lets not talk about it being the PC, at least in my case and most of others that work in the same type of fields that I do, that also use SL.
Henri is one man and accomplishes a lot you have a team imagine what they could do together to keep Phoenix as that original bird that arose from the ashes that you first proclaimed to all you intended to keep going no matter what, so what happened to the no matter what?
I think I may know without you dancing the jig for everyone as you allways do, since you are a now a Corporation is when we see your change, so as all Corporations must do by law both for profit and non-profit pleas give all a link to the page of your complete Annual Report, which by law is supposed to be public knowledge, then after people read it they will see why your change in direction from your original start with Phoenix came about.
The fact of me using your product, I dont need to or have to I just hate seeing people misled by someone like you have tried to do, but please publish the report, I know this has struck a nerve and you may even delet this to keep things quiet so to speak, but do know that some people that use SL know more than you give them credit for.
To end this I will also say that I have never seen a Pinto with a Bus engine in it but I have seen a Cavalier on a Four Wheel Drive frame with a Detroit Diesel Engine from a Mack Truck in it and it was beautiful, took five men to make it in about four weeks, the most time spent on some cutting and welding and custom machine work, and you know what? not a piece of Duct Tape in the whole vehicle.
@ DarkHood
ReplyDeleteO.o lmao that entier statment of your ust shows how little you know or even understand about lindens plans. Perhaps try and do some reserch first yeh ?
Well with the bugs on the grid, i bleave we are much les worried about the viewers we use to login but to manage to login at all!
ReplyDeleteblah blah
ReplyDelete"my computer is a super PC that most people would love to have, the reason for this is the programming I have to do at home, and the extensive encryption/decryption that I perform, so lets not talk about it being the PC"
etc etc
That requires memory and processor, and yet could it be completely inadequate for the most basic 3d game.
Second Life is not an ordinary 3d game, what I didn't see in any comment here is how heterogenous the content in world is.
In a regular game absolutely everything is fine tuned to achieve the best possible performance. In SL that just can't happen as most content creator don't think in the graphics capacity of the end user's computer when applies a 1024x1024 texture on the eyeball just cuz looks nicey.
SL is probably the most demanding 3D environment to date. Which sadly means that users DO need a powerful computer to handle that.
On top of that very basic and overlooked fact are all the new features (shadows, ambient occlusion, FOV, etc, etc) that also needs huge amount of processing and memory.
You could make your computer sweat copper just watching 5 avatars and play a very complex game without any problems. If you don't believe me then just go to those gorgeous all-sculpt sims and press Ctrl-Shift-R.
Thanks for the mesh viewer Jessica, and for bare with so much passion (I was about to write hate, but I think is simple ignorance).
Regarding computer power and outdated computers:
ReplyDeleteIf a person has a single-core computer with an Intel graphics card, likely they're not going to do well on SL. Even so, they can knock draw distance down to 64 and turn off all shaders... and still run it. It's slow, it's more like a slideshow than smooth game, but it runs. I have a friend that for years ran SL on a NETBOOK.
Now as far as reasonable configuration, if you have a relatively reacent (last 2-4 years) dual-core system and a decent graphics card (ATI 4650 or Nvidia 250 or above), you can run SL just fine. In truth, the graphics card is far more important than the computer itself.
Fortunately, today graphics cards are becoming cheaper and cheaper. You can get a 1-gig card for under $100 easily. I personally have an Nvidia 450s and it works just fine. One doesn't have to buy a new computer; just make sure you have at least 3 gigs of RAM and a decent graphics cards.
Now, if one can't afford even that, there are a couple of choices:
1) Find something other to do than SL
2) Find odd jobs or whatever so you can earn enough cash to upgrade your system
3) Live with what you have
I know there are many people out there who are disabled, can't work, have little or no money and are kind of stuck where they are. I know that there are many for whom SL is their entire social structure. For those people I sincerely sympathize. I might remind them however that there are other online social structures that are far less demanding computer-wise than SL-- and suggest they make a wise change to a different platform.
But for the others... those who are on SL 5+ hours a day and tell us they can't afford to upgrade their computer, my suggestion is they spend a bit less time goofing around on SL and a little more time in RL trying to earn a bit of cash.
Everyone has different circumstances, physical situations and motivations. But we don't need to buy the story that we have to have a quad-core heavy-graphics smoker with 8 gigs of RAM just to play SL. That's simply not so. A duo-core system with a < $100 graphics card will work just fine. Most folks these days own a dual-core, so if they can come up with $50 to $100... they can slam in a new graphics card and be amazed how greatly their performance will increase.
A trick for low-power computers: if your computer is bogging down on SL... go to your Preferences and turn off all SHADERS. That in itself may make all the difference in the world. The world won't look as good... but the speed increase will be dramatic.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI will have to agree with some people that viewers must firstly get improved, more stable, and then add v2 and v3-mesh codes etc. Firestorm 3 for my laptop (although it's a very "early" version) crashes soon after it starts. Firestorm 2 crashes randomly after 1-1,5 hour of use. Phoenix 1.5.2.1185 on the other hand is very stable (as long as it's still without mesh code). Of course, mesh code isn't the problem that causes the crashes, and an example of this is Henri's Cool Vl Viewer 1.26.2.0, which has mesh enabled, and plays on my Ati-graphics laptop as comofortable as phoenix without mesh! So, first improve speed, performance, stability, then add codes. Nobody's going to buy a super computer with "super wow" nvidia graphics card and pay a lot of money, just to be able to play mesh on a "heavy-as-a-truck" viewer like v3. And on the other hand, there's Avination, with fewer lag, and the comfortability of the old good, stable and fast Second Life (and a viewer that can play as fast as a lightning on my "poor ati laptop")!!!
ReplyDeleteSHURIKEN said...
ReplyDeleteI will have to agree with some people that viewers must firstly get improved, more stable, and then add v2 and v3-mesh codes etc. Firestorm 3 for my laptop (although it's a very "early" version) crashes soon after it starts. Firestorm 2 crashes randomly after 1-1,5 hour of use. Phoenix 1.5.2.1185 on the other hand is very stable (as long as it's still without mesh code). Of course, mesh code isn't the problem that causes the crashes, and an example of this is Henri's Cool Vl Viewer 1.26.2.0, which has mesh enabled, and plays on my Ati-graphics laptop as comofortable as phoenix without mesh! So, first improve speed, performance, stability, then add codes. Nobody's going to buy a super computer with "super wow" nvidia graphics card and pay a lot of money, just to be able to play mesh on a "heavy-as-a-truck" viewer like v3. And on the other hand, there's Avination, with fewer lag, and the comfortability of the old good, stable and fast Second Life (and a viewer that can play as fast as a lightning on my "poor ati laptop")!!!
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Well its tru that firstrom 3 mesh is still very early in development but i disagree with your staitment about firestoem being unstable and unreliable becuse the fact is it isnt unreliable and even the lindens own crash report tracker shows firestorm to be amoung the most stable of the TPVs.
Also you coment that its as heavy as a truc well in reality thats not the case when i have had phoenix running and firestorm running pheonix uses about 850 meg of memory and firestorm mesh uses around 900meg of memory and CPU usage is about the same were the big diforance layes howevewr is the graphics card and if its simply not up to the task then yes it will run so slow and will be unstable.
I personaly run firestorm beta mesh on ym comp as my main viewer and i can literaly use it for hours and hours with no lag or crashing and with very high frame rates so ether my comp is just better equiped to run it or i have mysteriuusly got a non buged version
When the phoenix are telling you you it's time to stop waiting and upgrade your computer, it's time to go back to living in a cave.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete»When the phoenix are telling you you it's time to stop waiting and upgrade your computer, it's time to go back to living in a cave.«
ReplyDeleteK. Q., that is not a very sensible statement. You should just keep in mind that it’s Linden Lab who add the resource-eating code, not any TPV devs, who are just working on that code-base.
It’s a truism that software developers have a tendency to eat up any hardware-speed advantage practically in real time when technical progress makes it available. (I quite clearly remember what it was like when Linden Lab were about to introduce WIndlight, i. e. atmospheric shaders: I said »Wow!« to the additional realism, but my Mac G4 I had at the time ran the Windlight beta-viewer just at 2 or 3 fps…)
»A duo-core system with a < $100 graphics card will work just fine.«
ReplyDeleteWayfinder, I’m much afraid that you are raising exaggerated expectations here. A configuration like this just might run Second Life, but not at a level where it is fun to play.
(Edit; I had made a mistake in quoting properly, sorry for that!)
Well...... overwelmed by the number of posts here, i eventually found the bottom. So i'll keep it simple as A phoenix user ( former Emerald and former Gemini user).
ReplyDeleteI hate the new interface's BUT, i would learn it and grow to use it if i get better performance !! At the end of the day i don't want lag, freezes, or low frame rates.
GET the performance right or better than V1 viewers and people will chnage in there dozzens!!
-Conor-
Jessica, thanks for a very clear article on Mesh and the future of Phoenix and V1 viewers. I agree with all those who like V1 better than V2, but also agree that retrofitting V1 to have V2 functionality is a losing proposition.
ReplyDeleteI know viewer 1's days are numbered and for that reason alone I spend alot of time using the various V2 viewers out there (Firestorm, SL, Kirstens). Everytime I wind up frustrated because I now have to something is so cumbersome in the v2 that it cuts down on productivity (at a time when the internet world is realizing that decreasing mouseclicks -and the wait between them - is important, Viewer 2 came along and INCREASED these) or I get unnoticed noticed because V2 HIDES notifications and then makes you do twice as much work to make them go away when done. I get left with the jaded feeling that LL's developers of the viewer 2 interface neither build much nor communicate with a large circle of friends within SL.
In my opinion, and apparently that of others in this forum, is that what needs to be done is have a Viewer 1 intuitive interface with Viewer 2/3 functionality. Lose the confining Tabs and go back to windows (maybe even separate windows ala GIMP that are not even part of the visual interface window) And restore the visibility on messages and chat as they were in viewer 1.
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