Tuesday, 20 September 2011
What's this rumor about Phoenix Viewer getting mesh?
Some time ago I told you that future phoenix releases would be maintenance only, no new major features. In that same sentence we also promised you we would try to keep it alive and maintain it until it's dying day. I told you all that Mesh would be the end all for Phoenix because v1 viewers simply cannot support mesh and that as mesh becomes popular, v1 viewers will slowly become visually broken. During that time it seemed extremely unlikely that a v1 viewer could accomplish back porting mesh and making it work because this would require pulling the entire render engine from v2 code base into v1, Quite literally hundreds of thousands of lines of code.
It's comparable to taking a diesel engine from a school bus and fitting it into a ford pinto.. and then making it work properly. No small task.. in fact it's a monumental task and was not one I was willing to dedicate our time too, especially when we have Firestorm. It would take months and months of 100% dedication to make it happen and there was always the question of if it could even be done.
Many of you have probably heard of a resident in SL here named Henri Beauchamp, he is the developer of the Cool VL Viewer. Henri is a very smart guy.. he's also very dedicated to Viewer 1. He has ALSO spent months and months of time backporting the v2 render engine into his viewer AND providing patches for this work to the public. He has successfully backported mesh into his Cool VL viewer and released it.
Ansariel Hiller from our dev team has been not only keeping a close eye on Henri's work, but she's been pulling Henri's patches into her local Phoenix repository. This morning, we merged her repository to ours, and to answer the rumor... phoenix WILL have mesh support.
I want to make a few things clear, not the least of which.. Henri is the only reason this has been made possible. Essentially phoenix Mesh release will be little more than a piggy back on his work, leeching from him... and he deserves huge amounts of credit for making this possible. If you see him in world and appreciate the work he has done, please thank him.
Another thing I want to make clear, which will not make me popular here... I was not in favor of adding mesh into phoenix, for a number of reasons.
Firstly, I don't want you all thinking we've changed our focus back on phoenix, truth is we haven't. Ansariel handled all the work of pulling henri's work into phoenix, LGG has helped. Aside from Tonya and Tech fixing some of the bugs.. Thats it.. essentially we've only had two developers working on this, and there are no plans to increase development on phoenix beyond that. However, mesh in phoenix will accomplish two things. It will complete adoption of mesh in SL, which is pretty cool actually. But equally important, it will also fulfill our promise to keep phoenix going until it's dying day.
Secondly, Make no mistake.. V1 is still on it's deathbed. Consider this.. it took over 9 months to get mesh to work in a v1 viewer.. it took us just over 2 weeks to merge mesh into Firestorm once we started the merge. This will be the pattern with all new things LL releases, making it work in Firestorm or a v2 based viewer will be far easier to adopt faster than making it work on a v1. Maintaining v1 long term is just not being realistic. But for now.. you will get phoenix with mesh as soon as it's passed QA and is ready. No date on this yet.
Speaking of QA, don't expect phoenix to be just like the last release only now it has mesh support. This work effectively makes Phoenix a Ford Pinto with a deisel engine from a school bus duct taped into it. Not only will it have all the existing mesh related bugs, but it will have plenty of it's own bugs specific to having a diesel engine in a Ford Pinto. It will have a negative effect on crash rates no doubt, will be a performance drop for some, an increase for others. It will not be perfect, as it is not designed to support mesh.
It will also require an SSE2 capable computer to run it just like Firestorm and LL v2/v3 does. Because of the SSE2 issue, those of you who's computers are so old that they don't support SSE2, seriously.. you need to upgrade your computer. Really...
But for you, we will also release a non mesh phoenix update with the latest features and fixes. This will be your last phoenix release you can use until you upgrade your computer. We will release phoe mesh and phoe without mesh at the same time.
Also, RLVa will be updated in this next phoenix release.. on the insistance of Kitty Barnett. You will have only her to thank for that, as RLVa update was another thing I was not in favor of. My job is to ensure we stay focused on the future. Phoenix isn't it, Firestorm is. I wasn't in favor of spending Kitty's valuable time on a dying viewer when her time can be much better served on the future of viewers.
Mesh upload capability is also under development and making some promising advancements thanks to Nicky Dasmijn.
So this will extend that shelf life for the Phoenix Viewer a little bit longer, but not forever. Enjoy it while you have it, and be sure to thank Henri.
Jessica Lyon
Project Manager
The Phoenix Viewer Project, Inc
Thank you Jessica :)
ReplyDeleteNot for Phoenix - Mesh, but for your down to earth honesty.
Although phoenix - mesh sounds good, I just hope that people do not peeper the support group with moans & groans and put our mentors off side.
sighs.... peeper should have read "pepper"
ReplyDeleteSorry :)
Thank you Jesica.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I don't care about that new mesh fashion and won't use this update I am sure many people will be greatful.
My teammates have no doubt bugged you a lot, but we still *CANNOT* switch to Firestorm until Firestorm has an LSL preprocessor.
ReplyDeleteWe can't afford to go back to not having such rudimentary programming features as libraries.
:\
The future? Firestorm is still in beta!
ReplyDeleteWhether anyone wants mesh or not the reality is mesh will spread across the grid just like sculpties and prim hair did and very soon everyone will have to have a viewer that renders mesh to see the world correctly. Start saving for your computer upgrade, we'll all be needing better machines.
ReplyDeleteGreat work by the dev team ... let's keep those viewer updates coming!
I chuckled a bit when you're trying to reminds us that you're not supporting Phoenix anymore.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you shouldn't have called it "Phoenix" in the first place. ;)
it's going to be with us for long time, no doubt about it.
So the the V2 render engine in V1 is like trying to put a bus engine in a ford pinto. Welllllll....
ReplyDeleteThe Firestorm team has been working even longer on making the V2 UI not suck than it took one person to port Mesh to V1. And guess what? The firestorm UI still sucks now and you can work on it for another year and it will STILL suck then. There is no amount of lipstick that will make that pig of a UI beautiful.
But I get it. You have made an investment - time, energy, and pride - in trying to make V2 not suck. I hate to break it to you - it's not possible. The "suckage" that is the V2 UI is throughout the entire viewer - nothing was left in a usable form. What you are attempting to do is port the V1 UI on top of V2 and that is MUCH harder than it should be - as you have found out. In fact, it is so much harder that it's an unrealistic task.
The exact same logic you use to say that it's not feasible to maintain a V1 viewer also applies to firestorm - trying to maintain (nevermind being able to achieve in the first place) a usable UI while LL keeps breaking it further with their changes will be a Herculean task that not even an entire team can achieve.
I still urge you to give up on the abortion that LL released onto the world that is V2 and retrofit V2 back-end features into Phoenix.
It'd of been allot easier if you'd of made a version of firestorm that mimicked V1's Exact Interface with the option to add V2 features.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like a couple of the features promised for the next Firestorm release will tip the Phoenix/Firestorm balance for me, but the graphics are currently horribly slow for every Mesh Viewer but one. Cool VL Viewer, for me, matches Phoenix for frame rate, somewhere between three and four times the frame rate of Viewer 3, whether Mesh is in the scene or not.
ReplyDeleteFirestorm is giving me better numbers than Viewer 3, but only around 50% better.
If Phoenix+Mesh gives me the frame rate advantage that Cool VL Viewer gives me, it's going to be hard for me to justify using Firestorm.
Hello,
ReplyDeleteI agree 100% with Sharie.
You should consider seriously dropping firestorm, and use those valuable resources in making Phoenix better.
Everything based on v2 is terrible, because it was a huge mistake from the very beginning.
I understand that is a very hard decision to make as you have spent a lot of time and resources on it, but... don't be like LL, accept that you made a mistake, please, and improve phoenix.
Long live Phonix... well, it is called 'phoenix' for a reason :)
Thank you very much to all Phoenix developers and Henri Beauchamp too.
MJ
PD: I don't know anything about school buses and ford pintos, so, that meant nothing to me^^
Why is it everyone is bad mouthing Firestorm, has no one realised what Jessica said to adapt Phoenix with v2 code would take a great deal of time and resources,
ReplyDeleteYou all need to stop living in the past and get with it the future is upon us and as much as you love your V1 interface etc its going the way of the dinosaurs, i applaude jessica and her team for.all the hard.work that they have put in getting firestorm out there and all you phoenix lovers should be grateful that that they have even given phoenix a new.lease of life and be thanking them not.bitching about dropping firestorm somethings have to die to make way for new.things i.hope when its phoenix's time to go you will all allow it.to.go in peace and not bitch and whine, let it flie high and appreciate it whiile you still have it love t for what it is not for what you wish it were.
(sorry for the poor punctuation and random full stops typing from a phone isn't easy lol)
once more a huge thankyou to Jessica and the Phoenix/Firestorm team for making two amazing viewers.
I don't want changing for V2, and a lot off user use phoenix V1 because for us the best!
ReplyDeleteMy goodness, why can't we all realize that V2 is HERE and it is not going away. V1 is going to become as obsolete as Windows 95 at some point, and a server change will probably (I'm guessing) break V1. Yes, V2's UI stinks and we're going to have to learn to use it. Please please please do not waste resources refitting stuff to V1.
ReplyDeleteThis is good news! An important thing to realize though is that the average resident really doesn't care what a viewer is based on or even know the difference. Viewer 1, viewer 2...doesn't matter, they just want something familiar that doesn't maul the eyes like viewer 2.0+ UIs do.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if anyone here has given FSv3 a try. I mean not just 5 minutes. It took me about 5 minutes to change some settings and log in with the Phoenix mode. Another 5 minutes to find out where to find what. And guess what? I have my FSv3 90% looking like my Phoenix.
ReplyDeleteFSv3 has even more to offer than Phoenix, cool stuff btw! I like that the Link/Unlink buttons are not in the Object tab anymore, which speeds up my building process (I hate my keyboard ;)) ... For the rest of the UI you just need one or two days to get used to it.
Sure, FSv3 is not ready for production use. It has some annoying bugs still, but when it goes final it will be the best viewer I have seen so far. I love it!
I hate LL's v2/3, seriously!
I don't know what SSE2 means, but I can fully agree that having a newer computer, especially having a graphics card for US$60+ is making SL a lot more fun ;)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI think both focusing on Firestorm as the future and making it better, and ALSO for now backporting features from the V3 viewers into Phoenix till Firestorm has caught up on usability and gotten the bugs worked out of it, is the right approach. Once Firestorm is at a more mature place, which is likely to take some time, then of course it will no longer make sense to keep putting time and energy towards Phoenix.
ReplyDeleteI've been using Firestorm v3 since its release.. I was getting tired of looking at people looking stupid wearing odd shapes and proclaiming to the world they look fantastic... Granted, what I have seen of mesh since I have been able to see it still does not impress me...
ReplyDeleteI happen to like Firestorm.. its as close to a v1 UI as you're gonna get in a v2 viewer. Sure I am missing some of my features from Phoenix, but I am sure the devs are working on bringing everything that was Phoenix to Firestorm, and I will be quite pleased when they do.
You have a happy customer here, keep up the good work.
We're tending to look at this from the POV of techie enthusiasts. We need to remember that the average SL user doesn't want to learn a new UI ever time there's a need for a new viewer and will cling to the old one for that reason. It's like buying a new car. While the controls may not be in exactly the same spot, they're still pretty much what you were used to, and the new car doesn't have the gas pedal on the left, brake on the right, radio in the door and light switches in the glove box. Similarly, people don't want to spend their time trying to figure where their inventory is hidden, how do they send an IM, or where are the windlight settings now? That's one of the things that hurt V2, and it's going to be an obstacle for each new viewer that comes along with everything in the UI rearranged, moved and hidden.
ReplyDeleteSheri: "I still urge you to give up on the abortion that LL released onto the world that is V2 and retrofit V2 back-end features into Phoenix."
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with Sheri and VJ. This isn't a matter of "living in the past" as some claim. This is a matter of Viewer 2/3 sucking like a Kirby.
I'm not one of those who cling to V1. I was all for the concept of V2-- until LL mucked it up (as was predicted they would do). As a viewer, V2 just plain stinks... and trying to imitate a viewer that stinks just because LL has a "we say so" attitude-- is throwing good effort after obviously bad.
Now, if V2 had more of a V1 interface... if it offered the tools we need... if it actually WORKED... I'd be all for V2. I agree the V1 interface needed upgrading. That didn't mean it needed thrown out the window and an abomination put in its place.
I'm not saying "hang on to the V1 system". I'm saying: Don't follow Linden Lab's blatant stupidity. Do better. If you want to go with V2 code... make the UI usable and valuable. Make sure it works. Don't repeat the same incompetent blunders LL foisted on its grid.
Point made: Second Life is stagnating and even declining in popularity... and has been since October 2008. There are reasons for that-- and I believe V2 to be a significant one of those reasons. So if we're going to go with the V2 concept-- at least change it so that it's workable, usable, and valuable.
In the meantime, I'm glad to hear there are no plans to trash Phoenix. Because frankly, I'll do totally without mesh before I migrate to V2... and if LL ever forces V2 exclusively on the grid... I'm outta there. It's just that bad. If Firestorm is to succeed and be widely accepted... it's going to have to be far, far better than vanilla V2.
Thanks for listening. Thanks for all your hard work. We do appreciate it. Please realize however, that when V2 was released 88% of the population rejected it in the most vehement terms. Please don't throw good effort after bad. If we're gonna go with the V2 platform... do it right. Which pretty much means ignore the way LL did it... and redesign the UI from the ground up. : )
You people that want the viewer 1 UI need to get used to the fact that technology changes. And yes, you are clinging to the past. You are only not using firestorm because you think they UI is exactly like v2, when its not. But then again I have used both viewer2/3 and firestorm extensively. Most of you haters likely have not used viewer 2 or 3 or firestorm for more than 5 minutes and decided you hated it because it wasn't exactly like viewer 1. Guys, as someone that used viewer 1 myself: its not that great. Stop pretending it was great, because everyone was griping about it a lot before viewer 2 came out, which is why LL rushed viewer 2 out in the first place. And stop trying to speak for everyone. Not everyone hates v2 or firestorm. I like firestorm, but unlike most of you haters i have actually used it, not for minutes, but weeks. Viewer 2/3 isnt that bad either anymore (insert shock and horror here), though I prefer firestorm. Phoenix is a dying viewer, by this time next year I doubt they will be developing phoenix anymore, better to move on to firestorm and get used to it now.
ReplyDeleteYou say that people with older computers need to upgrade. That's easier said than done, what with the U.S. real unemployment rate alone being somewhere around 22-24% (when you factor in all those jobless people who are no longer counted and the severely underemployed).
ReplyDeleteI am glad you are finally realizing that it is not only possible but desirable to bring mesh to Phoenix rather than go through the almost impossible task of trying to tweak the far inferior V2. But don't you think you're insulting people who through no fault of their own must stay on older computers?
Phoenix will keep rising from the ashes until there is something really better. Telling people they are wrong to want what they want doesn't help anything. Helping to make Firestorm better will help.
ReplyDeleteIm having a problem relogging back into firestorm. it doesnt like me. I was on it one day and now it wont let me back on it. so i have been using my phoenix viewer til i am able to log on again. it reminds me of the slv2 when i was on it so its not too much of a difference to me. i just hope i am able to log onto it. any suggestions? just IM me Gabriella Darkwyr if im not online send me a notecard cuz my messages get capped. please help me lol thans!!
ReplyDeleteThe ONLY thing I still dislike about Firestorm is that it ALWAYS crashes\\freezes my linux box. Every, single, time I run it. At first I didn't want to believe it, but the issue remains consistent no matter what I do.
ReplyDelete[insert list of usual first- and second-tier tech support suggestions here] -- I've tried all of those.
This is literally the only issue I have with Firestorm and is actually the only reason I don't use it. I don't much enjoy running a viewer that would cause me to hard-reset my system every time I run it; at seemingly random times.
This blog isn't tech support so I'm not going to list system specs or whatever beyond admitting that I'm one of THOSE people who have an ATi card on a linux box. I just wanted to put this quasi-rant somewhere, really. I'll just sit back and hope the issue gets fixed, as I can't possibly be the only one in my situation with this issue.
Incidentally I must agree with Wolfenstein Sequoia as I am among those unemployed. Thankfully though, my ageing box even supports SSE3. So at least I'm not out of the game yet--as it were.
Using Phoenix at this point is like using Windows 2000. You're using old technology, and whether you like the GUI as much or not, Firestorm actually has a Phoenix UI mode in it now, but I doubt any of you noticed because nobody ever seems to try to be fair about anything, they just cling to opinions. Old opinions.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if Firestorm is running slow for you, a big part of it is probably your computer, I've learned in playing SL that some people just simply don't have the understanding that technology ages. Just because your computer plays Minecraft doesn't mean it can play Crysis.
Additionally, if ANY of you are sticking to non-mesh viewers because your computers don't have SSE2 support... SSE2 is 2001 technology. For God's sake, get a new computer already! It's like riding a bike in NASCAR race.
@ Karol: Fasion with use the uprade to mesh due to how much more detail you can use whilst using mesh sculpties.
ReplyDeleteWith everything comes the death of a old thing and in with the new, like it or not you all are going to have to change.
And anyone with low budget computers that don't support SSE2 are just going to have to upgrade, or not play.
All of you saying we need to move on from the V1 interface, first of all I want to tell you to zip it. A lot of us began SL on V1 and enjoy it because of its simplicity and ease of use, those of us that want to stay with a V1 interface find it far too hard to adapt to V2. Why? Because its a mess, its clunky, its cluttered, its useless, and LL did whatever it felt like breaking something that actually worked. Everytime I try out a V2 viewer I get frustrated with it, simply because I can't adapt to it and its far too complicated for me. Also the slowness of it, the lag, the fact the graphics never load properly. Finally if we can have mesh with a V1 interface then I say we should have that, if Phoenix fails altogether there is always Singularity and apparently Cool VL :)
ReplyDeleteIf Cool VL Viewer, a V1 based Viewer with a V1 User Interface can support mesh...and Phoenix is able to use this code to make use of mesh...
ReplyDelete...doesn't that mean that Firestorm can have a V1 User Interface?
All in all, thank you Henri Beauchamp! A true Champ to all us V2 viewer haters! ;)
@Blueray Darkes: to be bluntly honest, no, we will not zip it. Many of us are getting SICK AND TIRED of listening to you people that hate viewer 2 go on and on and on and on about how much you hate it. we know already! Then when anyone tries to make v2 any better, like firestorm, or kirstens or whatever, you whine and cry because its not exactly like viewer 1. Get the F**k over it! Viewer 2 or 3 is not going away. Again, because y'all are deaf it seems: VIEWER 2 IS NOT GOING AWAY!
ReplyDeleteI have been in SL since it was 1.20. It wasn't great then, and people were complaining about how LL viewers were a mess, clunky, its cluttered, useless, laggy, complicated, nothing would load, etc etc. Thats why they rushed out viewer 2 in the first place, because people wouldnt shut up about how AWEFUL viewer 1.23 was! But now miraculously its the greatest viewer ever because its what YOU are used to.
If you havent used a V2 based viewer for more than a day at a time, then YOU zip it. I have used BOTH phoenix and firestorm: v1 and v2/v3. Guess what? v2/v3 isn't that bad now! The UI needs to be made better, but its not any worse than v1 in any other area. If you cant adapt to a new viewer or new technology, thats your problem. Everyone else shouldnt have to suffer because you are too lazy or stupid to learn something new. As for slowness and lag, thats BS. V2 based viewers lag less than v1 based viewers bar none, to pretty much everyone ive talked to that has actually used both.
In short: be glad you are getting mesh, but they are focusing on firestorm as they should be doing.
I like that "isn't that bad" part. Meaning it's still not as good as V1. Which it isn't...and I have tried using v2/v3 for weeks on end.
ReplyDeleteIt's full of bloat and waste.
Either way, it's good to see mesh incorporating into Phoenix. Because once you let v1 die...many of us will either quit altogether or move on to Cool or Astra or another v1 viewer with devs that are capable of doing all the things we've been told are incapable.
v2/v3 wouldn't be so bad...if it had a v1 interface. v1 followed K.I.S.S.; v2/v3 just punches it in the mouth. -.-
@anonymous: No, its just as good as viewer one, you just have to get used to it. Firestorm is as easy to use as phoenix. I've been using firestorm for months on end as my primary viewer. When I say its not that bad, I mean all the moaning and whining is not justified, not that v1 is any better, because its not.
ReplyDeleteV1 feels like a childs toy interface, it has its own unique forms of clutter and waste that you are just used to because you have used it for so long. That does not make it better though.
And v1 will eventually die, its not a question if IF v1 will die its a question of WHEN. Honestly i hope some do leave, less whining about new technology they arent willing to use and want to hold everyone back because they cant bother learning something new.
v2 interface is not the greatest ever, but the v1 interface is no better. its just you are used to it so its not as scary to you, but familiarity does not equal superiority. Viewer one is anything but simple, and while V2 interface can be improved, it is not that hard to learn as it is, just people refuse to
This Henri guy should be fully ashamed of himself for his role in keeping a dying viewer alive. LET IT DIE, my god.
ReplyDeleteI swear the unwillingness to switch to firestorm is like a mental illness, may I suggest you seek help as soon as possible?
@ Maggie Bluxome
ReplyDeleteFirestorm with a V1 interface is also called Phoenix with mesh rendering. It's the same exact thing. You can't just put the V1 interface on the V2 backend, you need to bring the backend along with the UI or you've got a huge mess. Since practically all that's in the viewer is UI/backend and rendering engine, Firestorm rendering with Phoenix interface is the same as Phoenix interface with Firestorm rendering.
Having read the blog I wonder if the rushed inport of mesh to Firestorm was not just to keep Pheonix from getting out with it first?
ReplyDeleteI have both Pheonix and Firestorm on my computer and like both to a point, but like most I prefer Pheonix by Far. It is the better Viewer and the number one viewer in Second life if I remember right. Pheonix is dead only if you can convince us (its users) and your development team to abandon it! I believe like many of the Pheonix/Firestorm fans that we would be better served if you pulled in a few more team members and put together too teams, One team would continue the development of the pheonix viewer that Jessica Lyon would like to see ended and the other team would continue the development of the Firestorm Viewer which does hold so much hope for the future. Sadly however that future is not here yet the Firestorm viewer is still in beta and not ready for primetime(even as poplar as it is becoming), and now with mesh it is defintely not ready for primetime, which could be a year or more away. I do believe that there are more then enough people and resources to do both and in doing so keep all of us happy!
@ Wolfenstien
ReplyDeleteGet a grip, she already made it clear that they are not supporting phoenix anymore than they stated at the release of firestorm. This is mearly a bandaid to keep the slow learners happy for a while.
If you can't afford to upgrade from decade old technology then I think it's common sense that you shouldn't be on SL at all, unless of course you're on welfare and have no interest in finding real work.
I'm bored, so joining the "viewer wars" fray. Yes, out of boredom. People clutter this blog with unnecessary dribble and banter anyway, so wheee:
ReplyDeleteWhy do people dislike the V2 interface? Simple:
The best interface is a consistent one. It's like going to the grocer every other day to find out the store owner has switched everything you usually look for into different aisles; oft-times just when you got into a habit of directly going to where you know they were. Wouldn't that drive you a bit nuts after a while?
All of you telling us old-style fans to quit whining: Just you wait. Stick around SL long enough, LL will do the same to you. This is hardly the first time the viewer interface has had a drastic change, and it won't be the last. One day you lot will find yourselves complaining, and the next generation after you will tell you to shush.
Myself? Par for the course. Interface changes happen all the time, with all software--even Operating Systems. Some more drastic than others. Fact remains; people (including myself) complain because ease-of-use finds a nice home in consistency. Without consistency, you're going to get confused. Over, and over again.
As for the lag? I haven't noticed it. Even on my ageing machine, V2 based viewers are sometimes even faster than V1 code. The only issue I usually have with LL-released viewers is the lack of C-Ares library in their auto-builds. That's typically the only V2-specific lag I get.
As for the touch of class-warfare going on: Rich people are not the only people who deserve good things. Those of you with your elitist "upgrade or gtfo" attitude are the ones who make this world (virtual or no) a sad place to live in. Just because someone cannot financially afford to (continue to) do something, doesn't mean they should be prohibited from doing it. (Now watch, someone's gonna say I'm condoning or endorsing theft. Lulz)
That's just my L$2. For great justice--no, boredom.
Did anyone doubt thats will happen? :)
ReplyDeleteI understand fully and it does seem to make perfect sense to focus on FireStorm. But I just want to give some feedback about the latest firestorm that I tried. FireStorm seemed to be extremely slow. For example, clicking a checkbox took seconds wile phoenix responds instantaneously (note that this is just an example, not that this is the only area that is slow). Is this an issue in the V2 code base that FireStorm adopts or a FireStorm issue? I hope it's the latter so that FireStorm team can address or I may need to consider if SL is still good for me.
ReplyDeleteThanks for all the efforts putting in the project and give us a great viewer.
I understand fully and it does seem to make perfect sense to focus on FireStorm. But I just want to give some feedback about the latest firestorm that I tried. FireStorm seemed to be extremely slow. For example, clicking a checkbox took seconds wile phoenix responds instantaneously (note that this is just an example, not that this is the only area that is slow). Is this an issue in the V2 code base that FireStorm adopts or a FireStorm issue? I hope it's the latter so that FireStorm team can address or I may need to consider if SL is still good for me.
ReplyDeleteThanks for all the efforts putting in the project and give us a great viewer.
Like everyone else moaning on here i too was to blind to see the benefits of Firestorm
ReplyDeleteI used the first release for 2 weeks and was actually starting to like it very much...
There is a BUT :/
It then crashed on me during a DJ set and took the machine with it!!
Making me look an idiot in front of 45 clubbers grrr
after that Firestorm would run at all... i went to long tasks to get it to work again only for it to crash again.
And the new Mesh beta is just the same.
So forget GUI and how it looks/feels and what gadgets does it have... First and foremost it must be STABLE!!
Phoenix is as solid as a rock and hasn't crashed for months.
So as someone who works in front of large crowds i need this stability and reliability more that anything else.
If Firestorm isn't better on next release im afraid the is only 1 way for me and that's LL V3
As long as Firestorm is in beta we only have Phoenix. Now that we have other viewers to choose from if Phoenix stops bring developed, and Firestorm is still buggy and crashing ms every 10 minutes I will simply choose another viewer that works or keep using Phoenix. There is a big push back to mesh. Like it or not. We all just want a stable viewer that have the functionality we have on Phoenix. And I got a brand new pc and Firestorm still crashes, loads slow and many other issues. I will wait until a proper release that is stable first. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It's your choice. Choose what us best for you. No matter what Jessica Lyons or others do, there will be many other talented developers out there keeping this alive. Henri and others have proven this. Congrats Henri and every other developer out there for their efforts in supporting the most stable viewer we have. As long as their are people developing for this platform we can continue onward without being left behind.
ReplyDeleteSharie Criss,
ReplyDeleteHere let me correct you in many aspects you are wrong. The phoenix devs are not trying to make firestorm have a v1 interface. They are trying to make it easier to use. Which they have done. And they have done it very well. You could be using v2 user interface and seeing your friends list on that little sidebar remember that?? So, don't say they are sucking at this because they are the only dev team currently that has been able to complete half the shit you would even dream of doing. You think doing what they are doing is easy? You think they just magically write a peice of code within a few minutes? Why don't you go and do what they did and then you'll understand what they are doing isn't all that easy. But, at the same time is very impressive. Phoenix having mesh yeah that's cool. But, you gotta remember it's like anything in the tech world old tech dies and new tech moves in. You are just witnessing a fact of life. And what is reality. Thanks jessica for everything you and your team have been doing great job :)
After four years of using v1 style interfaces, starting with the official LL Viewer and then on to Emerald and then on to Phoenix I started using Firestorm around four weeks ago. And it was awkward for me at first getting used to the new UI. But I took the time to watch Jessica's tutorials as well as attending Firestorm classes at Junkyard University and them patiently apply what I had learned. And while changing four years worth of habits has not always been easy, I've come to the point where I am preferring Firestorm over Phoenix.
ReplyDeleteI know some are having trouble with it running on their computers and I do hope that those issues get fixed. But some of you leave me with the impression that you didn't even seek help. I sought it and I got it.
For those of you who sought help and still have problems, I applaud you and hope those problems get fixed.
What I do know for me is that in my day by day puttering around in SL, that I love Firestorm now. Rez time has improved 10 to 20% (I timed it to make sure I wasn't imagining things), I get around 10 to 15 FPS faster than with Phoenix, I have had NO inventory loading issues and even my teleports have been faster and I have been having far less trouble with Lag! So outside of my getting used to the new UI, my enjoyment of Second Life has increased greatly.
I haven't upgraded to the 3.0 viewer yet. I decided to hold off until it was reported that some of the bugs had been fixed. Just my personal choice. So far it hasn't been a problem for me. I have yet to see anyone walking around carrying a doughnut. When I start seeing doughnuts all the time I will make the switch.
I do want to put out a word of caution to the ladies here regarding mesh. If you are wearing a mesh dress, make sure you are wearing a bra or some kind of undershirt. Otherwise you may appear like a topless (naked) girl carrying around a doughnut to someone who is not using a mesh enabled viewer. ( http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Why-do-meshes-have-to-render-for-non-compliant-viewers-So/m-p/1101801#M7011 ) Unless of course appearing naked is not an issue for you.
On a final note, I personally have no interest in engaging in a 'Viewer War' with anybody. My attitude is just like SL is 'Your World, Your Imagination,' so also it is 'Your World, Your Choice Of Viewers.'
My thanks to all the Firestorm/Phoenix Devs for all your work.
Don't let the ungrateful grate you!
Peace
It is really sad to see valuable talent wasted. Too hard to move on from V1? Pleeeease. A special version for computers without SSE2 support? Sigh. Slowing down Firestorm for that? So sad.
ReplyDeleteI know you don't like the idea of mesh in V1 but frankly Jessica as outstanding a job as the team has done fixing the Firestorm viewer up and making it about 500% superior to the LL viewer.
ReplyDeleteI still do not like the setup, design or feel of ANY V2-3 viewer. It would take some major redesigns of the entire viewer interface to fix it and for me and a lot of others that feel the same way this is news that couldn't be better to hear.
I am glad you are doing this regardless of who actually did the work and definatly want to give kudos to Henry as well for his work.
I love the work being done on Firestorm, however the one glaring issue that keeps me from adopting it completely is the horrendous framerates I get with Beta 3. I place blame for that squarely on Linden Lab's shoulders however as they give the codebase to work with. Until I can get better than 2-3 fps (With Beta 2 and Phoenix I can get 25-35), I welcome and will keep using Viewer 1 whether it be Phoenix, or the other mesh enabled v1 variants.
ReplyDeleteTo read the comments here, you'd think you were all paying customers. These are volunteers working for free to give you something for free and they have done a lot to appease you.
ReplyDeleteYou're not entitled to anything other than whatever viewer the Lindens feel like supporting. If you want to complain to them about their sucky viewer, maybe you have a right. You should be thanking these people for doing what they've done.
And its already been said but its worth saying again, get used to change. You've had a long long time to practice with the new viewer while still having the old viewer available when you needed it.
And if you really hate all things V2 that much and want support for V1, why not start using Cool VL Viewer. That guy is apparently immensely dedicated to making V1 continue to work while the Phoenix/Firestorm team has made it clear that they will be moving on. We're not only getting these viewers for free, we're getting multiple choices for free. We're beggars that get to be choosers.
I didn't like Firestorm at first either but once I got used to it, well, there are still some things I'd like to see pulled in but there are a few things that are actually better. The way dialog boxes are handled is better for example. You get your notifications tucked away in a little corner and they stay there until you're ready to look through them. Firestorm has flight assist built right into it so you don't have to waste an attach point on that and you don't lose your ability to fly at high altitudes even temporarily due to an ill advised "Replace Outfit" or detach. Its not all bad and its not that hard to learn.
Remember this dev team isn't forcing this change on you. They're trying to help minimize the pain for you.
Funny how people say something can't be done and some one comes along and does it anyway.
ReplyDelete“Phoenix mode” in Firestorm just must go a lot further to get more adoption. Telling people they are stupid won't win them over.
ReplyDeleteI agree 100% that Kitty could be working on something that isn't going to be dead soon, Firestorm should be a priority to get us out of Beta! All these stubborn folk that won't switch over, firestorm is so much like phoenix and very easy to get used to...at first I was one of the stubborn ones as well and if you can't switch over, I am sorry to hear that xD
ReplyDeleteDOES THE WORD VOLUNTEER DEVELOPERS MEAN ANYTHING TO ANY OF YALL.. i want to see each and everyone of yall try to code a freaking viewer..its not as easy as copy and pasteing..ok...it is a long and tiresome job to code a viewer
ReplyDeletegive these ppl sum credit and stop complaining that Phoenix V1 is going to die...everything in this world dies at sum point...so please give these VOLUNTEERS more credit then half of yall are doing
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ReplyDeletePinto with bus engine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfl-z4TShmM
ReplyDeleteIMHO this pro and con ranting is rather pointless.
ReplyDeleteI myself am still using Phoenix as my bread & cheese viewer just because I find that there are still a good deal of UI inconsistencies in Firestorm (even in Phoenix mode) which I don’t feel like dealing with presently. Not feeling like it meaning that I of course COULD, if I HAD TO. Those UI flaws (as I see them) will be straightened out in the process anyway, I am sure. And, yes, I’m giving my (hopefully constructive) share of feedback through the JIRA channel where I can precisely name what I wish to see altered or added.
I’m using Firestorm (mesh beta now) every now and then to get more and more familiar with it, that is for 2 or 3 hours in one stretch, and so far I haven’t tripped over any major bugs or inconveniences other than the aforementioned UI matters. Only point is that he Firestorm graphics seem to work differently so that I had to play around a little to make Firestorm as fast and good-looking as Phoenix, and that is fairly possible afaics, at least on my Mac (Pro early 2008, nVidia GTX 285, SSD boot-drive).
I take it that those who complain about performance issues have either a hopelessly out-dated computer or didn’t take the pain of adjusting their system properly. If anyone has the bad luck of being forced to use a computer which is older than five years or so, I am amazed that Second Life is running on it at all. If you can’t afford a second-hand PC which is a bit more up-to-date (that is, meeting the current minimum system requirements), I’m summat sorry for you, but that’s it. Accusing Linden Lab of only dishing out to those who have money is certainly going in the wrong direction. They are running a business, not a charity.
One more thing: bashing the Firestorm/Phoenix dev team is irrational, unjust and last but not least a proof of decidedly bad manners (and an astounding lack of understanding, come to that). If there is anyone to blame then it’s the decision-makers at Linden Lab who don’t seem to understand their own product (which they in all probability don’t use much themselves) and the needs and wants of their customers. The top guys at Linden Lab want to have a chunk of the social-networking market that Facebook or G+ are domineering. Hence the intention to make V2 look more web-style (just take a look at the abominable new search) and all that nonsense (as if web-interfaces were anything to brag about, they are clearly not). But Second Life isn’t a social-networking platform, it’s a game, with a lot of liberties to take advantage of, but still a game. Linden Lab made several efforts to acquire new users in that field, but to no much avail, if I read the numbers right. I’ve had the impression for years now that Second Life has been a brilliant idea realized by brilliant people. But those brilliant people seem to have left, and now we have to deal with what we have got. And it’s not the cream of the crop, I fear. »The fish stinks from the head«, as we say in North-Germany. Oh well… Such is Real Life. They will run Second Life into the ground or they won’t.
Benson, your hostility is uncalled for. My computer was made last year, so it is hardly old. My last computer was an 06/07 model, hardly the decade-old dinosaur you seem to think everyone who has problems with Firestorm uses. The attitude on display from you, Jessica Lyon, and others who support V2 is the biggest reason why more people are turning to Cool VL and Singularity, whose development teams are doing what Phoenix developers are only belatedly catching up to. It is not a matter of upgrading to new technology, which is the false argument presented (and to which I responded). Rather, it is a matter of a superior user interface being discarded in favor of one most SL users cannot stand. If you stop to think about the way you are responding, and learn to be polite you might find less hostility being returned to you.
ReplyDeleteOk, first I will ask this. Why all the hostility between v1 and v2 and v3 users? It's all a matter of choice, and what you choose doesn't have to divide you. Relax, everyone. :)
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I think that keeping Phoenix as a functional backup to Firestorm is a good idea, despite Jessica's wishes to more or less abandon it for Firestorm alone. What I mean by that is there are people who cannot use Firestorm, or for whom it causes a drop in performance. Until these things are addressed within Firestorm, I think it's good business to keep Phoenix as up to date as it can be.
Though the work is severe, perhaps what was done with bringing mesh to Phoenix can be done in other cases as well, by collaborating with other client creators to get things done. This way, a little effort can be put forth from many fronts to make things work, rather than the entire team being forced to divert energy and time to something that's being phased out.
I understand that Firestorm is going to eventually reach a point of being the "premiere" client from this group of creators. I also understand that LL is making it hard to keep v1 viewers even slightly viable. But I do believe that having something to fall back on while work is being done on the "main" client is a good idea.
To use Jessica's analogy, "When your main car is in the shop being fixed, it's always good to have a spare one you can drive around." As long as you guys keep Phoenix as functional as possible, people will have the option between the two, and that's nothing but a good thing.
I prefer firestorm to phoenix. I have nothing against phoenix users, seeing as many I know use phoenix. Its just it gets annoying when people complain about how much firestorm sucks on every. single. post. And the bad thing is its readily apparent that most of those that hate it haven't actually used it for any length of time. Then they try to speak for everyone on top of that, saying to stop all v2 viewer development and go back to v1, because THEY like the interface better. So its ok to deny me and others our choice of viewer, but when people say they prefer firestorm and should get used to it, we are "elitists". it works both ways, most of the hatred of v2 based viewers is coming from people that dont use v2 based viewers. it reminds me of mac vs pc flame wars.
ReplyDeleteThank you, thank you, thank you.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately my productivity is greatly decreased with firestorm (even the Phoenixfied version) and now being able to see mesh will absolutely be killer.
Thank you.. Thank you... Thank you.
And thank you Henri, and thank you Astra guy, and thank you Phoenix devs.
Did I say thank you, yet?
I wish Jessica would just put her foot down and yank Phoenix releases and continue on with the far superior Firestorm.
ReplyDeleteLet the oldbies and slow learners move to cool VL, does anyone really care where they go? This isn't competition it's about making a viewer that people enjoy. It's quite clear that plenty of us enjoy firestorm as well as the head producer. :)
@Serith: No, the people who don't like V2/3 aren't "haters". Those who call them haters might check their own attitude. I've been on SL since 2004. I've seen and used every manifestation of viewer from early days onward. You are correct, V1 isn't the greatest product in the world. Pretty much everyone I talk to agrees the V1 interface needed overhauled. But V2/3 was so very much worse it's beyond belief. And NO, Serith, it's not because we only spent 5 minutes trying to use it. I spent HOURS trying to adapt to the new viewer. The reality is this: the viewer stinks, bigtime. The vast majority of the population rejected it in the most vehement terms-- and it wasn't because it was different than V1. It was because A) The interface is incomprehensible in places B) It's buggy as all get-out C) Some vital aspects are totally missing and D) Things that we use and need everyday are hidden in some sink-hole of a UI system that came out of a Wes Craven nightmare.
ReplyDeleteYes, things change. As I told the Lindens long ago: we're not against change. We're against OMG WT?????... change.
Even Linden Lab itself finally admitted that they made a mistake in how they designed the V2 interface and how they presented it to their customers (basically... leaving us totally out of the loop). So I'm sorry, but your post comes across as biased, unfactual... and disrespectful of those who dislike V2/3. I appreciate it's your opinion-- but with all due respect-- that opinion needs a reality check-- and a little more respect for the opinions of those who disagree with you. There are a whole bunch of us out here who dislike v2/3 for one simple reason: it's lousy. I for one was looking forward to a new viewer and gave it every chance in the world. It simply not only didn't live up to expectations... it turned out to be a design nightmare created by people who obviously had no clue about how Second Life works... and how users use the system. That's the simple bottom line.
@Ice God64: I wasn't aware Firestorm had a Phoenix UI mode. In all fairness, I will certainly check in to it... once the creators give us the thumbs up that Firestorm is functioning like they want it to. I've done my "beta test" bit over the years and I'm more into "use what works" now. Thanks for the heads up. : )
ReplyDelete@Benson: "Let the oldbies and slow learners move to cool VL, does anyone really care where they go?"
So in other words Benson, you don't care about what anyone else wants, so long as you get what YOU want, right? Sorry dude, your attitude needs more work than V2. Sorry to be so blunt, but your post is haughty, uncaring and blatantly offensive.
@DJ Shepherd: "As long as Firestorm is in beta we only have Phoenix. Now that we have other viewers to choose from if Phoenix stops bring developed, and Firestorm is still buggy and crashing ms every 10 minutes I will simply choose another viewer that works or keep using Phoenix."
Well-said. I switched to Phoenix becuase the 2 other viewers I tried were extremely unstable. The last viewer I tried crashed an average of 5 times a day. Phoenix hasn't crashed ONCE. To me... that means something. The point is... Phoenix works, and appears to work well. It has mesh. So folks, what is all the hullabaloo over V2/3, Firestorm, etc? Phoenix works.
That doesn't mean we can't go ahead and create something better. I do think it means that any suggestion of trash-canning Phoenix is very ill-thought. I have had several friends tell me that Firestorm feels clunky, slow and crashes. So until that is all fixed and stable like Phoenix... I think any thought of throwing Phoenix to the curb is very premature.
@Perrie: Your comment about ladies appearing naked in some viewers is VERY apropo. Good point. Most folks aren't aware of it... but there are still people using v1.23... Snowglobe, and a whole lotta people using Hippo. Anyone wearing mesh or even 2nd layer clothes without undergarments... will appear totally naked to older viewers. Many people are FORCED to use those viewers because they have older computers. A friend of mine was totally shocked to learn that he (a male, btw) appeared shirtless to 75% of the people around him. We should all be aware of that reality: not everyone is using new viewers, with the new functions.
@Everyone: No need to war over this. Some folks like the V1 interface. Some folks like the V2 interface. Some folks (like me) think somewhere in between would be ideal (ie, V2 functions with an interface that makes sense... and is neither V1 nor V2 but a totally new and viable design... which is what LL should have done in the first place). Personally, I think it is FAR to early for anyone to be talking about scrapping V1 concepts. At least V1 flippin' works for the most part. No matter what people say about the interface, what they like and use etc... they cannot honestly say that V2/3 works well. It obviously does not. When it does... and when it has a decent UI... then we can reasonably talk about trash-canning V1, yes?
Everyone has opinions. It is the diversity of opinions that often help the techs arrive at a newer, better, and more usable product. Someday Firestorm will probably be THE product everyone wants to use. Until that day comes... I think it's good to listen to and respect the opinions of everyone here, put an end to personal bias / attitude, and stop insulting other people just because their opinion disagrees. Guide for life: just because we personally believe something doesn't make it so. The actual truth usually lies somewhere in between the opposite radical opinions.
Dracos: "Ok, first I will ask this. Why all the hostility between v1 and v2 and v3 users? It's all a matter of choice, and what you choose doesn't have to divide you. Relax, everyone. :)"
Exactly. Well-said.
If people use the JIRA to paste crash logs, and to show the bugs they are getting, then maybe the devs would be aware and fix them.
ReplyDeleteIf all the toyota owners crashed their cars due to the accelerator pedel being stuck, but NO ONE ever said anything, then nobody would have ever known there was an issue with them
If you don't tell the developers what issues you having with the viewer, then how are they supposed to fix them?
if your pissed off about things not working, then leave the complaints and the issues in the JIRA, where they are organized and where every issue is looked at.. not just yell at the devs on a blog post reply, and think that is going to help.. because its not
@Wayfinder Wishbringer sa
ReplyDeleteNo, the people who don't like V2/3 aren't "haters". Those who call them haters might check their own attitude.
Yes, many many of the people that don't like v2/v3 ARE haters. They tried it for all of 2 minutes, didnt like it because it wasnt exactly like V1, and rail against it every chance they get. Not all that dislike v2/v3 are haters, but many are. I dont hate viewer 1, but i am sick of people that hate v2/v3 trying to stop all development on those viewers because they personally dislike them. I dont care if they keep developing phoenix, but calling for them to scrap firestorm because it uses v2 interface is nothing but being a hater, plain and simple.
I've been on SL since 2004. I've seen and used every manifestation of viewer from early days onward. You are correct, V1 isn't the greatest product in the world. Pretty much everyone I talk to agrees the V1 interface needed overhauled. But V2/3 was so very much worse it's beyond belief.
I have been in SL since 2007, not as long, but still have been through the whole v1 thing and v2 and now v3. Thing is, I stuck with emerald and later phoenix even when v2 came out. I thought iy sucked as much as everyone else did. But i also continue using it with each update they do, and it has gotten better, much better than it was at 2.0. In quite a few ways it is better than v1. Firestorm is also a great viewer, it being based on v2 doesn't change that.
And NO, Serith, it's not because we only spent 5 minutes trying to use it. I spent HOURS trying to adapt to the new viewer. The reality is this: the viewer stinks, bigtime.
ReplyDeleteIn many cases, yes it is. Most people that hate viewer 2 or 3 have either not used it, not used it very much (the people that used it for 5 minutes and go back to v1) or used it last year when it first came out and think it hasnt changed at all in that time. if you havent used v2 or v3 in the last 3 months your opinion on it is worthless. I switch back and forth between the two Uis regularly because each has advantages for some things, but the strikes against v2/3 viewers are going down a lot.
The vast majority of the population rejected it in the most vehement terms-- and it wasn't because it was different than V1.
But many many did reject it for that exact reason, and many refuse to move to firestorm for that exact reason now so....
It was because A) The interface is incomprehensible in places
As is the v1 interface, you are just used to it so can find your way around it quickly. Use a v2 based viewer for a month and it will be second nature, if you try explaining v2 to a newbie, you will have just as hard a time explaining it as you would viewer 1.
B) It's buggy as all get-out
Bugs are being fixed on v2/3 viewers, they are not being fixed on v1, except by third party devs. In my experience it is no more buggy than v1 was, but thats just my experience. Though most that find it buggy usually either have old computers, or need to take better care of their systems
C) Some vital aspects are totally missing
Like what exactly? Everything that is in v1 is in v2, just some things are in different places. Firestorm is not feature equal with phoenix yet, but it is getting there. Nothing is missing now that I personally consider vital, but i spose for some niche cases that might be true.
D) Things that we use and need everyday are hidden in some sink-hole of a UI system that came out of a Wes Craven nightmare.
This ties in with A). you are just used to the v1 interface so can find your way around it quickly. V1 has Ui quirks too that make people scratch their heads.
So I'm sorry, but your post comes across as biased, unfactual... and disrespectful of those who dislike V2/3.
ReplyDeleteAs do the VAST majority of posts against v2 and users of v2, who take way way more crap than the v1 people can likely conceive of. I dont go around telling people that v1 sucks and you should all switch to v2, but i have seen v2 haters do that exact thing to users of firestorm and v2. I have seen v2 haters eject and ban users of v2 based viewers. I have seen them refuse to help with anything because they arent on the "correct" viewer. Quite frankly v1 clingers should start expecting a backlash, because it is getting ridiculous how much some hate v2. It is not *that* bad, and people have a right to use it too.
I appreciate it's your opinion-- but with all due respect-- that opinion needs a reality check-- and a little more respect for the opinions of those who disagree with you.
See above comment. V1 people are the ones that need to learn respect for opinions of those that disagree with you. Maybe when you get kicked from a sim because you use phoenix or a v1 based viewer, or someone refuses to help you with something until you switch to a "normal" v2 based viewer, or have people follow you around telling you how much your viewer sucks and how you should move from phoenix because everyone is using firestorm and no one wants clunky old viewer one that no one uses then you will understand. V1 loving people need to give respect and stop being so elitist against v2 using people or there will be a backlash.
Also, you guys can't seem to see the haughty, uncaring and blatantly offensive opinions you V1 people spout, only seeing what V2 proponents say as such. Calling for the team to stop all work on firestorm and go back to phoenix, thereby abandoning all the work they have done on it, is uncaring of the team and the people that use it. they have been saying for almost a year now that they will move on to firestorm some day. This is not coming as a shock or surprise except to those that just plain don't listen. Most of the calls to stop firestorm development are haughty, and in many cases offensive as well. I dont call for the end of v1 viewers, but they *are* coming whether you or i want them to or not. Instead of complaining about it i am getting used to the change. I see that as far more constructive than trying to take down other viewers.
Serith, some of your comments and opinions may be valid (or may not... as is the case with anyone, myself included).
ReplyDeleteYour replies to me were respectful, if totally different from my opinions... but that's fine.
I think what is happening is that people on both sides are feeling threatened. And I think that needs to stop. People who use Phoenix and like Phoenix don't like it when Firestorm or V2/3 users spout that V1 needs to be abolished. As I've already stated... I think it is extremely premature to speak of getting rid of V1s... especially when (at least from what I've seen) Phoenix works, and works well. Nevertheless, people have the right to state their opinion on such without personal attack in return.
At the same time, those who say Firestorm should be abandoned are in the same boat. They have the right to say so without personal attack in return... but need to realize that change is inevitable. Eventually... something will very likely replace V1. That time is most likely a couple of years away, but by no means should we abandon the concept of making a more stable, better viewer-- with a far better interface than either V1 or V2.
One advantage that I have is that I worked in this industry for almost 3 decades, and I know the difference between a good interface and a bad interface. V1 was a bad UI. It gained an industry reputation as being "newbie unfriendly". However, it was the interface that was used, known and understood by some 750,000 users. To throw that out entirely was just plain goofy.
At the same time, as bad an interface as V1 was... V2 was and is far, far worse. People can say "Oh I've gotten used to it". That doesn't make it a good interface. It just means some people are getting used to the interface... no matter how bad it is. In my professional opinion... V2/3 is a *terrible* interface, non-intuitive, and difficult to explain to others.
We needed a new interface. I don't think anyone denies that. But we didn't need V1 totally destroyed and thrown in the dumpster; we needed it improved, made friendlier, more intuitive, with the tools most often used at easy-access. What we absolutely did not need... was Viewer 2, which did nothing but muck up the situation terribly. No matter how "used to V2/3" people may get... imo it's still a lousy, non-intuitive UI. I've seen good UIs. I've designed good UIs. V1 was poor. V2/3 was/is worse, imo.
Let me give an example. I went to a store lately and picked up an iPad. I also picked up an android pad. Both of those I was able to use immediately, zero instructions, zero experience with either system. The pad UIs were intuitive, easy-to-understand, and everything was beginner-oriented.
Try that with Mac OS, Windows, or Linux-- all three of which are not good UIs. None of those systems are intuitive, easy-to-understand, newbie-friendly, or can be figured out without extensive and time consuming research.
(cont)
ReplyDeleteThat's just an example of the difference between a good UI and a bad UI. And that's what I've been talking about... that V1 was a poor UI, V2/3 was worse... and we definitely need something better. We need a UI that works on VR worlds like people work. Pad computers work like people think. Desktop computers don't. That's why people can pick up a pad and say "Wow this is kewl"... and it's why they sit down to Windows or Mac or Linux and scratch their heads in frustration.
But I will agree with you in one thing: people need to stop saying "trash this" and "trash that". Now... I myself have said repeatedly, to Linden Lab, to trash V2 and start over. That's because it's such an extremely horrible product. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. But I'm certainly not going to tell this gang to scrap Firestorm (well, maybe the name. I mean... Firestorm?)... nor do I think it is at all a good idea to stop supporting Phoenix.
So I'm very glad they put mesh into Phoenix, I'm very glad it's still available... and I think any plans to phase out Phoenix should come long after Firestorm has been "perfected"... the UI has been tested and approved by the general populace... and Phoenix simply is no longer needed. Until that time, talk by anyone of trashing either system is, imo, simply inappropriate and self-centered.
I have the feeling that basically you agree with me and are simply upset at people bashing a system that you find totally acceptable. I can sympathize with that. But... people are going to state their opinions, pro and con, one side and the other. So imo, folks should simply say what they think, be aware of the feelings of others, try to stay factual, and recognize how the industry works.
Change happens. Sometimes it's good, sometimes not so good. My main beef with Linden Lab is the fact that they totally ignored their customers when people raged against V2... and just forced their opinion on the entire grid. Fortunately though... they didn't outlaw (entirely) V1 viewers (they didn't dare).
I do think that after all this time, someone needs to realize that neither V1 nor V2 is the proper answer. What we need is an interface that resembles V1... but is far more intuitive and helpful. I don't believe the V2 interface is good at all; it's simply a bad design... and I say that from many years experience.
I don't think it's the goal of TPVs to exactly imitate Linden Lab. The idea is to do better-- far better. If that means making a UI that is radically different-- and radically better-- then I say that's the direction most people need to be thinking. Start with V1, add the best aspects of V2... make it work more sensibly, better, easier... and do it right.
Quick follow-up: As an important note, it was mentioned "I switch back and forth between V1 and V2/3 regularly".
ReplyDeleteThat's really not a good idea... and it's why I avoid testing Linden Lab's latest releases. There is mounting evidence that switching between V1 / 2/3 viewers can cause serious and permanent inventory loss... and of course Linden Lab doesn't seem to give a rat's hind end.
If one wishes to "test" V2/3... I would strongly suggest doing so with a totally different avatar. I have heard of numerous cases of folks losing thousands of L$ worth of inventory by switching between the two systems. This has been documented and reported, to the point that we put it in a blog on our group website as a warning.
So that's something for folks to think about, because to my knowledge... that problem has not been resolved.
Nice a woman talking diesel engines, would love to pick your brain on that one.
ReplyDeleteOk, I didn't want to get involved in this neverending viewer war, but since I see so many false claims spread here, I feel I need to...
ReplyDelete@Wayfinder
Your comment about ladies appearing naked in some viewers is VERY apropo. Good point. Most folks aren't aware of it... but there are still people using v1.23... Snowglobe, and a whole lotta people using Hippo. Anyone wearing mesh or even 2nd layer clothes without undergarments... will appear totally naked to older viewers. Many people are FORCED to use those viewers because they have older computers. A friend of mine was totally shocked to learn that he (a male, btw) appeared shirtless to 75% of the people around him. We should all be aware of that reality: not everyone is using new viewers, with the new functions.
This simply isn't true. Any viewer will download every clothing layer it supports from the server and bake it into a single avatar texture, which is then sent to everyone else around. It simply doesn't matter, if the viewer on the receiving end supports one, two or a zillion clothing layers, it will always be displayed correctly. If your friend appeared without a shirt, then because he didn't wear one... It's true, that mesh clothes will appear broken on non-mesh viewers, but the majority of mesh clothes comes with an alpha layer to hide the avatar underneath the clothes, so any V1 users will see a partly invisible avatar wearing a doughnut...
If one wishes to "test" V2/3... I would strongly suggest doing so with a totally different avatar. I have heard of numerous cases of folks losing thousands of L$ worth of inventory by switching between the two systems. This has been documented and reported, to the point that we put it in a blog on our group website as a warning.
I've tried and played with probably every viewer around, often switching to the one which serves the respective purpose best, but never lost a single item of inventory. I've seen that happen on OpenSim, but it merely was an issue with the viewer not downloading the inventory correctly. Simply clearing the cache fixed it... If it is such a common issue as you claim, please point us to JIRA describing it, there must be one for such an important problem...
@Hazeo - I don't really care about this new fashion in SL or if my dress moves with my virtual butt or not or seeing it on others. Maybe it looks good but I don't get in my WOW mood that easily. But that's just me...doesn't mean others don't like it anyway.
ReplyDeleteAs for all you including LL suggesting people to stop using SL if they can't affort to buy a new machine...
Although my computer supports SSE2 I still support the people that can't buy a new one. Just because I have a work in RL and getting paid a good amount of money so that it allows me changing my PC every couple of months doesn't mean everyone can do it. There are other priorities for many people in RL.
Anything that forces you to buy something to use it is bad for itself anyway. SL is all for money (at least for LL)and this is a bad marketing way to keep the money coming if you forcing players to stop using your application.
Phoenix team is doing a better work than what LL is doing. And we all should be grateful to this team as they provide us with better viewers to use both V1 and v2 ones. I just wished Firestorm was not based on V2 UI. That's all.
V1 and V2 viewers both have their good and bads. I respect the ones that like V2 UI but I choose the one that is easier for me to use and this is Phoenix until LL blocks it.
@Wayfinder Wishbringer
Very well said!
Oh, and while I am at it, I'm really curious to hear any other arguments about V2 other than "the UI sux". I'm gonna give a few to start an serious discussion:
ReplyDelete-KDU is a killer feature, makes textures rez twice to three times as fast as in Phoenix
-I build complex, scripted objects, often working with more than one script at once. On Phoenix/V1, I was more busy managing the cluttered window madness than actually working. The sidebar on V2 keeps most things tidy and easy to access, and since widescreens have been common since like 7 years, this has become one of the most common concepts of UI design, not only in SL, but in most software around. Compare to your internet browser...
-I love the quick navigation bar. I can quickly jump to my favourite sims without having to dig in my inventory first.
-Same with the outfit menu. No more spending hours dressing. Combine your outfit once, save it, dress with a single click later...
I agree, that V2 ain't perfect either, but it is a huge step forward. I don't think it can get much better without major changes to the underlying system (I'd love to have meta-data one day, to make it easier to handle stuff for casual users in SL)
As for the drops in FPS: Some videocard drivers (talking about AMD in particular, cannot speak for others) seem to enforce Anti-Aliasing for V2, but not V1 viewers, even if it is disabled in the viewer's hardware settings. This might cause a significant drop in speed on lower end hardware. Refer to your video driver's documentation on how to force it off... I cannot see a noticable difference in performance among the viewers on my box, which used to be a mid-range gaming-grade system 2 years ago...
I saw a lot of comments saying v2 is the future and v1 is the past, and that you must follow the evolution.
ReplyDeleteShould you follow an evolution ? Yes. Should you follow an INVOLUTION ? Why on earth ? V2 interface is, to be kind, a terrific involution. Why on earth should one accept tossing out something that *W*O*R*K*S* for something which in the best definition does *NOT* ? I understand phoenix team efforts, but as other said, direct them in the right direction. Following v2 crap may be the future, but it is not the right way. I will stick to phoenix till it works. Then I will stick to other v1 based viewers. Give me a truly better interface, not some paint on v2 crap, and I will consider it. Give me a viewer that has _all_ the features that made phoenix great. *All*. And I will consider it. Maybe that will be Firestorm v4 or v5, not for sure the current one.
SSE2 has been around longer than Second Life. SSE2 product began shipping via Intel late 2000 / early 2001 and via AMD in late 2003. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSE2 . I suppose if you bought a very low end AMD based computer in 2005 you might not have SSE2 support, but would seem to be about the limit. If you bought a typical computer since 2005, you should have SSE2 support. Does anyone have a computer less than 5 years old that doesn't support SSE2?
ReplyDeleteMy computer is 2 years old... and does have SSE2 support. It runs all three, V3, Phoenix, and Firestorm. I go just off the crash rates... V3 and Firestorm are neck and neck for lasting me about an hour maybe... Phoenix goes all day... and looks better. I know Firestorm is the future, and I am migrating to it.. but I'm not jumping up and down for joy about it. Personally I'm nervous about a mesh upgrade to Phoenix... I'll probably keep a copy of current build running just because when I'm building/coding, I need a stable machine that isn't going to crash before I can save the scripts.
ReplyDeleteI look at it when Windows puts out a new OS...
I usually wait till SR1 comes out before I upgrade... certainly till the (beta) comes off the title.
Absolutely many thanks, Jessica, even for the "mesh" release, which I wait for, AND for your clarifications, which are at least right and fair.
ReplyDeleteI think that, as a dying viewer, Phoenix doesn't need a full mesh support but just the capability to view meshes (which, I think, is not a light duty) so keep focusing on Firestorm developing, which all we're waiting for, and simply leave us the possibility to choose to use a Phoenix viewer which can "view" meshes or not, thanking even Henri and Ansariel too. :)
I'm looking forward to the very good work you and your team is doing on Firestorm to implement all the absolutely good features of Phoenix one (all the techie things, I mean, which 'are "mandatory" to me ;)) and, as soon as the gesture/chat problem (FIRE-1624) will be fixed, I will start to use Firestorm extensively and leave back my old good Phoenix, which saved me a lot in the SL world.
Thanks to have took over the Emerald (re)build, after that really big problem, thanks for all the time spent to make Phoenix and Firestorm better (and, besides the FIRE-1624, I found Firestorm really better on my MAChine), thanks to have tried to make the UI lighter, like Phoenix one is.
Keep on the good work. :)
Brainfart: "I didn't want to get involved in this neverending viewer war, but since I see so many false claims spread here, I feel I need to... This simply isn't true. Any viewer will download every clothing layer it supports from the server and bake it into a single avatar texture, which is then sent to everyone else around."
ReplyDeleteFirst point... the only "viewer war" that exists are those that insist on calling it a war, viewing it as a war, and participating in it as such. The rest of us are just discussing opinions. And while I'll agree there does seem to be those who insist on fomenting a "viewer war"... I consider it more than a little ridiculous and ill-behaved (not to mention opinionated and arrogant-- mind you not pointing the finger at anyone in specific). Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Those who consider people "enemies" just because their opinion is different... imo need to grow up a little. The whole "viewer war" concept is just plain silly. What, we can't discuss things as adults and respect even stong opinions different than our own? Yeah, there's a viewer war. And it's goofy.
Regarding the claim of the system baking things "into a single avatar texture"... sorry Brainfart, but I believe that's incorrect. Not only have techs told me that non-second-layer-equipped viewers won't rez second-layer clothing... but I've seen it with my own eyes. And yes... my friend WAS wearing a shirt... which a photo showed appeared fine in his viewer. But to half the people around him, it didn't. So I'm sorry, no, there is no "baking into a single avatar texture". If that was the case... we wouldn't see avatars with shirts rezzed and pants gray.
Brainfart: "I've tried and played with probably every viewer around, often switching to the one which serves the respective purpose best, but never lost a single item of inventory"
And again I find myself repeating... for how many Nth times... with all respect Brainfart, just because it hasn't happened to YOU doesn't mean it doesn't happen... and it doesn't mean the problem isn't widespread. Your personal experience is not the whole and end sum of SL existence. Why do we have to keep pointing that out to people?
As far as hunting for JIRAs... you're just as capable of doing a search as I, yes? I avoid doing other people's work for them. So instead of telling someone they're making "false claims" just because you haven't personally experienced it (I call that copping an attitude)... I would recommend you yourself check the JIRA, blogs, forums and Internet to see if it has been reported (ie, do a little research yourself rather than just telling other people they're wrong). A reasonable request, yes?
(cont)
ReplyDeleteNo fewer than four people from my group have reported this exact problem to me... one of which I witnessed myself with a close friend... who lost several thousand L$ worth of clothing she'd just bought days before (I was with her on the shopping trip and helped her organize the bought items in her inventory). She lost them directly after trying to switch to the V2.6 viewer (and no amount of effort restored that inventory-- not clearing cache, relogging, trying different viewers. It was GONE). And of course, she received zero help from Linden Lab "support". So I assure you sir... regardless of your personal, individual experience and opinion... this IS a problem that has happened to numerous people-- and was directly related to switching from a V1 to V2 viewer.
Myself, I don't report anything on JIRA anymore. Why? Because I wasted 6+ years doing so, and having those JIRAs regularly ignored and denied by LL (some of those being some of the most heavy-duty JIRA reports on the system). You want details of some of the major ones, I'll be happy to fill you in.
4120etc: "Why on earth should one accept tossing out something that *W*O*R*K*S* for something which in the best definition does *NOT* ?"
VERY good question. My answer was already stated up there: we shouldn't. We should wait until the new system works (and works WELL)... proves itself to be better... and then switch. Now certainly does not seem to be that time. Now those who enjoy beta testing and want to jump in and help the devs... I applaud that. But I think it is highly inappropriate for anyone at this time to be telling us it's time to phase out V1 and Phoenix. That is just extremely premature. So you stated that question well, 4120. The answer is: give us something far better, something that is stable, something that works, something that has a BETTER user interface... then suggest that we switch. Don't ask us to trade a nice pizza for a hotdog with no mustard.
I've used Firestorm for a couple of weeks before I switched back to Phoenix. Honestly the UI doesn't bother me so much, but the lack of Phoenix's features in Firestorm does. I realize that Firestorm is still in beta, so it's easily forgivable, but there are quite a few things I appreciate in Phoenix which keeps me with it. Until Firestorm is implemented with all of Phoenix's features and comes out of beta, I am sticking with good old Phoenix. I do really look forward to Firestorm's full release and hope that it is truly a better viewer to use when it's finished being polished up.
ReplyDeleteThank you for all your hard work making such awesome viewers and hope your excellence never changes. ^^
@ Wayfinder
ReplyDeleteI have had no issues at all switching between viewers, but then again I dont do it several times a day, just when i need to use v1 for something. by v1 i mean phoenix, and v2 for the most part firestorm, and LLs viewer. Some may have issues, but I myself have not.
@Karol As for all you including LL suggesting people to stop using SL if they can't affort to buy a new machine...Although my computer supports SSE2 I still support the people that can't buy a new one.Anything that forces you to buy something to use it is bad for itself anyway.
I dont feel bad telling someone whose computer cannot run SSE2 that they need to get a new computer. SSE2 is on every computer since 2005, and on most computers since 2001. If your computer doesnt have SSE2 then it is at least 6 years old, and if its intel then its 10 years old. Most people dont drive 10 year old cars without expecting some performance issues, why is it different for computers? And with new PCs being like 400 dollars for a passable computer, there is not really that big an excuse not to get a new one. thats not being elitist, thats being a realist. You cant expect to run the latest things on 10 year old hardware.
@ 4120f95c-bd21-11e0-8ffb-000f20980440
ReplyDeleteI saw a lot of comments saying v2 is the future and v1 is the past, and that you must follow the evolution.
Not necessarily, but it is smart to get used to change, or it makes it harder to get used to later on.
Why on earth should one accept tossing out something that *W*O*R*K*S* for something which in the best definition does *NOT* ?
V2 works just fine. Linden Labs is tossing out V1, and the TPVs are doing the same thing they did with viewer 1: trying to make it better. They did it with phoenix, now they are doing it with firestorm.
I understand phoenix team efforts, but as other said, direct them in the right direction. Following v2 crap may be the future, but it is not the right way.
Actually it is the right way since, yanno, the company that makes SL is moving to v2 based tech on the servers and in world. Clinging to viewer 1 like a security blanket is not the right way either. Besides the UI, most everything about V2 is better or the same as v1, and the UI is in some cases just a preference.
I will stick to phoenix till it works. Then I will stick to other v1 based viewers.
And why not a v2 based viewer? Firestorms Ui is not the same as V2 from Linden Labs. Most every viewer on the grid will move to v2 codebase at some point.
Give me a truly better interface, not some paint on v2 crap, and I will consider it.
Have you actually tried firestorm? It has a v2 look to it, but it is not "paint on". It is hard to make a great interface. Could they do better than v2? yes, but v1 is not it. Who knows, they might be able to come up with a better interface in time. Firestorm is already better than v2 interface and its only been a few months.
Give me a viewer that has _all_ the features that made phoenix great.
Apparently you havent been listening to the office hours or such. They are adding in all the features that phoenix had. A UI is not a feature, btu all the actual features, like spell check, radar and such, firestorm will have or does have. Its still in beta, but nevertheless, it will have all the features phoenix has .
Please take in to account that ALOT of people CANNOT use firestorm or V3 of LL because it is not compatible with something on their system. That equals crash after crash. lots of bug,ect. I do not like the people that say" buy a better computer" like everyone that plays sl is spoiled and rich. For some of us the only option is the latest version of Phoenix and that is it.
ReplyDelete@Lone Jacobs
ReplyDeletePlease take in to account that ALOT of people CANNOT use firestorm or V3 of LL because it is not compatible with something on their system. That equals crash after crash. lots of bug,ect.
Not really, most dislike the UI, not because its more buggy. Those that complain of the bugs generally have not used it in a while, since the latest viewers have not had too many bugs. If there is a problem with your computer, run anti virus scans, defragment, run system updates, do system maintenance, check your connection, then see if those fix your issues
I do not like the people that say" buy a better computer" like everyone that plays sl is spoiled and rich.
If your computer does not run SSE2 then yeah, but a new computer. its unreasonable to expect developers to have to keep support for decade old hardware. Its unfair to the rest of us as well that have more modern computers to have our abilities held back because some people wont upgrade their hardware. Also, its not a "spoiled, rich" thing, if you want better performance, buy a better computer. Don't complain when your old computer wont run the latest stuff. Thats the way technology works.
For some of us the only option is the latest version of Phoenix and that is it.
Phoenix and firestorm have the same system requirements.
Regarding the claim of the system baking things "into a single avatar texture"... sorry Brainfart, but I believe that's incorrect.
Well, it's not a single texture, but it is a single layer. The viewer (not LL Servers) bakes all the layers you are wearing down to one. The order is skin, tattoo, underwear, regular pants and shirts, jacket, skirt, and alpha. The V2 feature of wearing multiple shirts for example just adds this to the mix in the order worn.
So... These multiple layers are backed into three textures, head, upper body, and lower body. These 3 textures are then uploaded to SL and is what other people see.
The grey is simply that 1) the baking process for a body section failed, 2) transfer from your viewer to SL failed, or 3) the downloading from SL to other users has failed. Most of the grey issues are #2 and #3.
Clouds are usually caused by the shape (mesh) not loading correctly (which is impacted by the hair, skirt, and shoe clothing la