Why so quiet?
Firestorm...
We've been very busy preparing a new Firestorm Maintenance release which is actually turning into more of a general release because of the accumulation of more new features! But the main goal of this next release is to address many of the performance and stability issues our last one had. We've fixed a lot of bugs ourselves and have ported many of LL's fixes in too. We are in QA with it right now and it's looking like it'll be a big improvement! We've also recently merged Linden Lab's new FUI (Flexible User Interface) work into Firestorm, but unfortunately it has broken a lot of things...but fear not! We've already started work on fixing what's broken, improving what isn't and integrating FUI into our existing interface to give you the best of both worlds. You can expect our maintenance release to show up in the next few weeks, and our integration of FUI after that. The future looks bright!
Phoenix...
Remember we promised we would keep Phoenix going as long as it's feasible and we will stand by that promise. And it's sounding lately like LL is starting to take a less aggressive stance towards V1 than what we were initially told nearly a year ago. By the sounds of it, LL has no immediate plans now to break v1 by turning off server side functionality. This of course is nothing more than the impression we are getting, there has been no official statement either way. Which means we want to get another Phoenix release out some time soon as well. When? good question.. no time frame yet but hopefully within the next few months. We're hoping we can address some of the performance, stability and mesh related issues our Phoenix users are experiencing on the 1600 release.
Office Hours...
We're trying to get the Phoenix Hour kick started back up again and hope we'll have some news about that very shortly. We've missed having the shows and we've missed having you there. It's very important that we can keep an open line of communication between the project and our users. I'll update you as soon as I have some news.
So there's lots going on in the background, stay tuned! It's all coming your way soon!
Sincerely,
Jessica Lyon and the team.
Nice news here! BTW, sorry for my ignorance,but what FUI means?. Yes, I tried Google, but I just found a lot of silly things like Fake User Interface (I dont think is this one, is it? lol).
ReplyDeleteThanks again for the hard work ;)
Flexible User Interface should suffice. It doesn't seem to have an official name.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the update. I'm looking forward to the next release of Firestorm but frankly the release pace of other TPVs makes Firestorm woefully outdated within a couple weeks of release. Maybe it's time to stop living in the past and get serious about the business of more timely and prompt updates.
ReplyDeleteKeep up the good work.
Hey y'all...do you think it's time yet to call your webpage Firestorm Viewer instead of Phoenix Viewer yet ? Also, the Firestorm Viewer Project instead of the Phoenix Viewer Project ?
ReplyDeleteA remark. Either you stop completely and definitely to update Phoenix, or if you don't, please update its RLV as well. Phoenix's RLV is getting more and more out-of-date.
ReplyDeleteLL very frequently has "no immediate plans" to break stuff, but breaks it nevertheless, in the course of fixing something else, and then don't fix it.
ReplyDeleteThey had no immediate plans, I am sure, to break PosJump or Invisiprims, both of which they've done in the last few weeks, and I doubt they had any immediate plans to remove 1.23 from the list of supported viewers until they broke Copy & Wear in the course of making changes to the inventory back end, and decided not to patch 1.23.
PosJump will be replaced by LlSetRegionPos(); it already works in my sim.
ReplyDeleteYes, I know it will be. My point was that -- as I understand it, if you'd have asked LL a few weeks ago if they had any immediate plans to break PosJump, they'd have said that they didn't, though they would have said it wasn't supported and would stop working at some point.
ReplyDeleteThen it transpired that a fix for something apparently unrelated to PosJump turned out to break it under certain circumstances, and, rather than roll back the fix, LL seem to have decided that the point at which PosJump would stop working had come unexpectedly early, and they'd give us llSetRegionPos instead, as they'd promised.
The fact that LL has "no immediate plans" to break or retire something by no means rules out the possibility that it will nevertheless stop working next week.
I think more unintentional breakage of V1 is to be expected since LL isn't supporting it and likely doesn't check V3 fixes to see if they break V1.
ReplyDeleteAnd all this time I thought the I in FUI stood for "Instantly".
ReplyDeleteWell as I look around in world I see without doubt that the vast majority are using Phoenix so I'm far from being alone.
ReplyDeleteLinden would be foolish to stop Phoenix working and risk loosing users and of course money.
This is true. For months now we've been flat out lied to by people who despise the V1 user interface, claiming that Linden Lab would "turn off server side functionality" — an event predicted would happen any time now, even as Linden Lab backs away from such claims.
DeleteThe truth is that TPVs like Phoenix, Singularity, Cool VL (coding from which was lifted to incorporate mesh capability into the latest Phoenix release), and others are no more V1 than are V2 and V3. This is because what the developers do is essentially replace the clunky, time-consuming, user-unfriendly UI of V2 and V3 with the V1 UI. Other than how the final product looks, there isn't much difference anymore between the V1 GUI-based viewers and the V2-V3 GUI-based viewers.
If Jessica and her anti-V1 friends were simply honest, if they said to us that they simply prefer the V2-V3 GUI and wish to discontinue Phoenix in favor of their preferred viewer, that would be one thing. It would also be honest. But they're instead using a lie that the V1 GUI-based viewers will be "broken" by the Lab, which simply is not true. As long as there are programmers willing to back-port V2-V3 features into the V1 GUI, those viewers will continue to function and remain available to those who prefer the V1 GUI.
Hope this clears things up.
Good to hear that you're alive and kicking. I'm looking forward to the results of your hard work: especially Firestorm !!
ReplyDeleteIt must be hell of a job to maintain both Phoenix and Firestorm viewers: my respect !!
June, Linden Lab doesn't care.
ReplyDeleteIf you use a third party client, their stance is that you're not really one of their customers.
Maybe LL have, over the years, compared the number of people who say, "If LL do such-and-such, I'm leaving" with the number of people who actually do leave when LL nevertheless go ahead and do it, and have formed their own conclusions.
ReplyDeleteI swapped to firestorm from the RLV client when that swapped to the horrible V3 layout. Firestorm with starlight skin has been perfect for me since then.
ReplyDeletePlease please please retain the sidebar for those of us who like a nice tidy UI without multiple windows overlapping each other.
@emma sunshine
ReplyDeleteThe next release of firestorm will not have the FUI (flexible user interface) that is in V3. it will instead be tweaks and some features on what is already there and will be 3.3.x.They already have an FUI branch in the repository though, so they are planning to bring in the new v3 interface, but whether it will replace the V2 one or coexist with it likely depends on how much the FUI mucks things up.
MULTIPLE LAYER OPTIONS! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ON PHOENIX!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI agree that it's time to concentrate on one viewer. I hung onto phoenix for a long while due to hating the V2 UI. However with being able to keep much of what i like in Firestorm, I thought it time to grit teeth and move over. After all, we faced a much steeper learning curve when w first logged in to SL.
ReplyDeleteThere are important things like memory leakage in firestorm and semi transparent mesh not being seen with shadows enabled that need your time.
I can truly understand the fierce loyalty that Pheonix/emerald users feel ( I am/was one) but, it's time to move on. As Dylan said " If you are not busy being born, you're busy dying"
You don't have to sacrifice functionality, stability, and ease of use. As I pointed out up-thread, as long as programmers are willing to continue back-porting features into the V1 GUI, those viewers will continue to be available. It's not a matter of "moving on" from a doomed program that isn't actually going anywhere, but a matter of user preference.
DeleteI was having a discussion yesterday with a film-maker friend of mine about the fate of film in the motion picture industry. According to him, film is actually less expensive than digital for several reasons, some of which include having to clear hurdles placed by various committees concerning quality in presentation. Another key reason why film will probably stick around another fifty years is archiving: as digital archiving necessitates updating programs every couple of years, retrieving movies saved on previous formats becomes a real problem — just ask the Cohen brothers. Archiving on film removes that issue. And then of course there is the preference factor.
So don't think you're forced to stop using the TPV of your choice. You do have other options.
Atra?
ReplyDeleteI don't reckon Linden Labs really cares what viewer anyone uses beyond viewers that are used to violate TOS.
I am reasonably certain they would prefer not to have to spend money developing viewers at all.
What Linden Labs depends on is numbers.
If you can explain to me why they have an interest in anyone using a particular viewer I would be interested in the reasons.
Curiously,
Georgie
One thing I would very much like to see in Phoenix is the "Turn avatar around when walking backward" AO option firestorm has.
ReplyDeleteWell, of course that, multiple layers and the RLV update. Honestly, it's mostly the UI that still keeps me on Phoenix.
I am glad to hear that FUI will be included in the new release. I am not one of the guys holding on with dear life to the v1 interface. I rather like FUI. But I do have a request, I'd like to see the news stream displayed in user profiles. It seems like you guys have gone out of your way to get rid of it so I think my request will go un answered. For now, I am using the LL release until the "new features" like news stream make their way to Firestorm.
ReplyDelete@alex
ReplyDeleteThe FUI will not be in this next firestorm release, at least not the betas we are seeing so far. The next release will be more improvements to the previous version than the FUI. The next version should be called 3.3.x by the FS team, and will have a new skin thats a lot more viewer 1 like called vintage, among other things. The FUI will come after this maintenance release . The team has started an FUI branch though, and they are working on it, but its not ready for primetime yet, depending on how easy they find it to tweak the FUI and add features, it may be a month, it may be 2 or 3 before we see FS with the FUI, but it is coming.
Georgie, it's not really something that should even need to be explained. Their actions do that for them.
ReplyDeleteThey run a service, provide a client to access that service and only offer support for their own client. The moment you try and get support from them and tell them you do not use their client ... they brush you off and tell you they cannot offer you support.
The closest analogy to this would be among the old school ISPs. If someone had been able (and allowed) to develop third party access software for Prodigy, AOL and others ... they too would not have offered any support to those accessing their service with anything other than the official software.
Their support teams are trained only on the official software, their programmers only know how the official software works.
So far as they are concerned, if you pay them for access (and not everyone does) but use a third party access client, all you are doing is paying for the access. You're not really interested in the rest of their product.
To use AOL as another example, they offer a paid service and a free (BYOISP) service. The paid service gets full customer support, including the ability to contact a live person.
BYOISP? All you get is an automated line which can do nothing but spit out prerecorded lines right from the manual.
Dear Phoenix team,
ReplyDeletecan you please encourage Phoenix/Firestorm users, to check their profile-privacy settings? I like the interests/social-connect features of next gen profiles. Unfortunately, by using web based profiles, most of the biographies of TPV-users appear partially or completely blank.
@Cincia Um what other TPVs are releasing faster? Since Firestorm is currently the ONLY v3 based TPV that's both useable and still being developed, your statement makes no sense at all. Obviously LL can release new features faster and any TPV developer pretty much would have to be playing catch up to them.
ReplyDeleteThe Phoenix devs have been working both to bugfix the current iteration of Firestorm as well as looking at what it's going to take to integrate FUI. That's not a minor thing. It's as much of a change from v2 as v2 was from v1. It just hit with far less hype surrounding it.
I'm glad to hear the office hours are coming back. I miss them.
@Karl -- I don't understand what you mean by "Firestorm is currently the ONLY v3 based TPV that's both useable and still being developed."
ReplyDeleteI use a lot of different viewers for testing my RLV products and I've found Catznip, Dolphin, Marine's RLV, Niran's Viewer and Exodus all perfectly usable, and, while I've not tried it because it doesn't have RLV, I'm told Zen is quite acceptable too.
You might not like these various viewers for particular reasons, and prefer Firestorm, but to describe them all as "unusable" might be overstating your case rather, at least to my mind.
I'm not very clever on the features you all are asking for here I'm just a simple user of SL and want a viewer that works out the box, Phoenix does that for me so I use it.
ReplyDeleteFirestorm does not I had to change things around and alter settings when I used it. On top I do not like the look of things on screen.
Now you talking about a V3, can you tell me is it a third look?
Do V3 viewers incorporate the FlyCam Indicator that Phoenix and Firestorm do? (Linden V1 does but not Linden V2.)
@ Karl ... Exodus, NiranV and Dolphin are much more up to date with the current LL release cycle. I like Firestorm but it is, factually, months out of date while these 3 I mention here are much more current; January 2012 TPV fixes and LL shining fixes. You should do a little research.
ReplyDeleteI think no one has deceived anyone about the fate of any version viewer, rather everyone has given the best information possible at the time they posted. The fact is the number of people willing to build viewers to access SL is finite. Since this work is largely unpaid I think those people building viewers should work on a viewer they prefer to work on. If that means my favorite viewer dies off (and it did, twice) I have the choice of a) learning to build my own viewer OR b) acting like the adult I'm supposed to be and adjust to a new viewer OR c) whining incessantly OR d) quitting SL. I choose b. Everyone makes choices and has to live with their choices.
ReplyDelete@Archangel Mortenwold
ReplyDeleteFor months now we've been flat out lied to by people who despise the V1 user interface, claiming that Linden Lab would "turn off server side functionality"
If anyone despises a user interface, its the V1 partisans. Most of those on v2/3 based viewers dont care oif someone is on a v1 based viewer. LL will turn off server side functionality, they already deprecated the official 1.23.5 because inventory is breaking on it. Viewers that are not updated will suffer the same fate.
The truth is that TPVs are no more V1 than are V2 and V3.
There are massive differences between v1 and v2 or v3, not just the UI either.
This is because what the developers do is essentially replace the clunky, time-consuming, user-unfriendly UI of V2 and V3 with the V1 UI.
Wrong. Actually devs backport v2/v3 features onto the old v1 codebase. have you even used v3? Its UI is a lot better than v2s was. Its as good as the v1 UI was if not better. In my opinion the v1 interface is clunky, time-consuming, and user-unfriendly
Other than how the final product looks, there isn't much difference anymore between the V1 GUI-based viewers and the V2-V3 GUI-based viewers.
Again wrong. There are massive differences under the hood between v1 and more modern viewers. This is why you dont have multi layers or media on a prim on phoenix, but on firestorm you do. Its more than just UI differences, and anyone who knew anything about coding would know this.
If Jessica and her anti-V1 friends were simply honest
no one is "anti-V1". Jessica is not either. I personally am against the viewer 1 partisans who claim to speak for everyone, using the royal "we", acting like they should stop firestorm for phoenix. Doesnt mean i have anything against users of phoenix or other v1 viewers
But they're instead using a lie that the V1 GUI-based viewers will be "broken" by the Lab, which simply is not true.
Oh but they will. Thats why linden labs pulled the official viewer 1.23 from download. it will soon no longer work. Viewers that are no longer maintained will also not work well. You can use it, but it wont be able to get inventory. V1 viewers will get harder to backport things to as time goes on as well. Why focus on backporting all that to v1 interface, when instead they can make v3 interface viewers better?
If LL is going to "turn off server side functionality", then why is it no one — not even Linden Lab itself — is giving a definitive date? There is no plan to turn off viewers that use the V1 GUI. LL simply isn't offering updates or service on its older version viewer. That is a far, far cry from turning off access to it. Again, third party viewer developers, including Phoenix, have shown that features now common to V2-V3 can and are being back-ported into the V1 GUI. As features from the 1.5 version are changed or replaced, so too do the TPV developers who use the V1 GUI while retaining the "physical" look of V1.
DeleteYou're deliberately and dishonestly equating the graphic user interface, that is, what people actually see when they use the viewer, with all those "under-the-hood" features actually being V2-V3.
You've been told repeatedly by programmers who actually work on this sort of thing and who understand the difference between how a program "looks" and how it runs, what it is that's being done. So you know full well that Jessica and her team are deliberately lying.
The truth is that for whatever stupid, childish reason, you're trying to force people onto a viewer they don't like simply because it offends your sensibilities to see that some programmers can accomplish what you've deceived yourselves into thinking is impossible: keep the V1 GUI while implementing the V2-V3 functionality. That's all the V1 GUI people have been asking for. It's been done by others including the Phoenix team, and is still being done. So don't go acting like something hugely difficult is being demanded.
Nor do you really need to keep lying to people, especially after you've been caught red-handed in it. You wonder why you're getting so much hostility. How would you feel if someone kept lying to you, even after you've pointed out the facts? How'd you like it if those same people kept ordering you to "adapt or leave", as though you're somehow clinging to the past? I bet you'd feel pretty insulted, and annoyed.
So why would you do that to other people and then turn around and wonder why the hostility in return?
Talk to Henri Beauchamp about what's really going on with those "under-the-hood" features. Talk to the Singularity developers. Talk to anyone else who's actually back-ported the V2-V3 stuff into the V1 GUI and made it work — with far fewer bugs, much less instability, and less use of resources. They'll tell you the same thing I have. V1 GUI-based viewers will remain as long as dedicated, talented programmers keep maintaining them. That is the truth of things. Linden Lab is simply not updatng V1, which is not the same thing as pulling the plug on TPVs that use the V1 GUI. You know this for a fact.
Now, the fact is that Jessica and her team are anti-V1 GUI. Their every typed word posted here confirms this. Don't bother denying it. When they keep spouting the same lie over and over again to try to convince a skeptical user base to drop their more popular viewer, and offer nothing but insult to even the most civilly-raised questions, that is a clear demonstration of where their sentiments really are.
Now you can keep lying and end up with egg all over your face when the V1 GUI-based TPVs are still around long after you predicted their unspecified demise, or you can start telling the truth and just admit that you simply don't like V1 GUI and want to discontinue maintaining Phoenix. Yes, you'll still lose the majority of your user base that finds the Firestorm viewer unstable and user-unfriendly, but that number will be less than the number you're losing to your elitist attitude and insults.
@Archangel Mortenwold
ReplyDeletethen why is it no one not even Linden Lab itself giving a definitive date?
because people who cling to v1 like a security blanket would howl and scream about it being turned off. That said they also likely do not have a date yet. Windows 7 will cease to work someday, but i dont have a date for that either, doesnt make it any less true.
features now common to V2-V3 can and are being back-ported into the V1 GUI.,
Some can, but it is harder work to do so. It is easier to work on v3 interface which already has the features. Firestorm is getting a more v1 like interface anyway.
You're deliberately and dishonestly equating the graphic user interface, with all those "under-the-hood" features actually being V2-V3.
Some things v2 and v3 can do, v1 cannot. It is not just a case of "lets take v2/v3 and slap a v1 Ui on it". Its not that simple, if it was someone would have done it already
You've been told repeatedly by programmers who actually work on this sort of thing and who understand the difference between how a program "looks" and how it runs, what it is that's being done.
They say its harder to backport many v2/3 features to a v1 codebase, and they dont want to when they can focus on making v2/3 better. You got phoenix et al. because some did the same thing with v1.
So you know full well that Jessica and her team are deliberately lying.
The team tells us what they know, if LL changes their mind that is not lying.
The truth is that for whatever stupid, childish reason, you're trying to force people onto a viewer they don't like simply because it offends your sensibilities
Pot, meet kettle. I can use that word for word to describe those that dislike firestorm and v2/v3. Shockingly, not everyone likes v1, and more and more are using firestorm and v3 as time goes on.
That's all the V1 GUI people have been asking for. It's been done by others including the Phoenix team, and is still being done.
It will get harder and harder to do. That effort can be better spent making v2/v3 better. LL is using it now exclusively, new people as well. And here is nothing superior about v1 Ui, especially since v3 Ui replicates it rather well.
cont.
Or, and I know you hate having to face reality, it's because Linden Lab isn't stupid enough to cut off access to its grid for more than half its user base. The fact you refuse to accept is that a large chunk of the grid finds the V2-V3 interface unusable. Even leaving that aside, the programming bugs, instability, and resource-hogging make it difficult to impossible even for many high-end gaming computers to use the default viewers.
DeleteThis is where your inability to accept reality clashes with your desires. You can't stand that other, better programmers have done and continue to do what you've fooled yourself into thinking is impossible: graft the V1 user interface onto the V2-V3 code base while making it stable and less of a resource hog. It's even been pointed out with snapshots that the FS viewer gobbles up much more in the way of resources and has a much lower FPS than Phoenix.
http://imageshack.us/f/213/1firestormrelease201112.png
http://imageshack.us/f/560/1firestormbeta201112110.png
http://imageshack.us/f/18/2phoenixviewer201112110.png
http://imageshack.us/f/600/2coolvlviewer2011121102.png
As you can see if you bother to look at the snapshots, the official release of FS has a significantly lower FPS than Cool VL and Phoenix. This is because the resources required to support the same graphics settings are more than what's required in either Phoenix or Cool VL. This is recorded fact and you can't lie your way out of it. Neither can Jessica Lyon, for that matter.
The team tells us what they want to believe, not what they actually know. They deliberately twisted what Linden Lab told them and then passed claims they knew to be based on false assumption on to other SL users, hoping we'd be stupid enough not to notice we were being lied to. It's a matter of good ol' pride at work. The Firestorm obsessives refuse to admit that their beloved V2 is fundamentally crap, and they want so badly to see viewers like Phoenix, Singularity, and Cool VL (the last of which was used to bring mesh into Phoenix, ironically) go away that they're resorting to telling outright falsehoods.
This is the issue that irritates people. Instead of being honest with us and saying that you simply don't like the GUI on Phoenix and want to go with something else, and that it is the choice of the Firestorm team, not that of Linden Lab as to how long Phoenix lasts, you're blaming its demise on LL. But as was pointed out repeatedly, and you refuse to accept as reality, discontinuing updates on a depreciated viewer is not the same thing as flipping a switch and turning it off. You know this for a fact, but you people keep lying and saying it is. I don't know how many times I have to say it before it sinks in, but as long as dedicated programmers are able to keep back-porting V2-V3 features into the V1 GUI, those TPVs will continue to be released and used. There is no magical date at which any of these viewers will cease to function, barring someone pulling something monumentally stupid like what happened with Emerald viewer.
All I'm saying is, stop lying to people and just be honest with them. Yes, you'll still lose users who prefer the V1 GUI. But you're losing even more with the incessant lies and other insults.
You wonder why you're getting so much hostility.
ReplyDeleteThe decision to stat firestorm was met with hostility before it even started. People wanted them to focus on phoenix and give it priority then got pissy when they said no.
How'd you like it if those same people kept ordering you to "adapt or leave", as though you're somehow clinging to the past?
Adapting to changing technology is the way things go in tech. Those that refuse to accept it will learn the hard way eventually. Many of those that are most noisy about clinging to v1 often are "clinging to the past" because they are more comfortable with it, not because its actually better.
So why would you do that to other people and then turn around and wonder why the hostility in return?
I have pointed out in previous blog posts that the hostility started form v1 users against v2 users. Now there is some blow back from v2 users. When you get kicked off sims, harrassed to use a "proper" v2 /v3 based viewer in world, have people refuse to help you with anything because you dont use their viewer, then we can talk about hostility.
Now, the fact is that Jessica and her team are anti-V1 GUI.
Not necessarily, at least in my talks with them. They work on firestorm because its easier or them to work on, besides, their time, their viewer, they can work on what they want to.
offer nothing but insult to even the most civilly-raised questions, that is a clear demonstration of where their sentiments really are.
I rarel see questions from V2/3 haters, usually just "firestorm sux, work on teh phoenix viewer cuz iz the bestest". They answer questions about why certain things cant come to v1 based viewers civilly, but they get ignored because its not what they want to hear.
you'll still lose the majority of your user base that finds the Firestorm viewer unstable and user-unfriendly
I see more on firestorm daily. It is not unfriendly, and not all that unstable either, but then that would require using it for a bit instead of hating it because it doesnt have a v1 Ui.
but that number will be less than the number you're losing to your elitist attitude and insults.
I see no insults here. At least until you started. It is not elitist to state the truth about the future of Sl. That future is v3. V1 people who hate v2/v3 show a far more elitist stance than the team does, or I do. "Everyone must use v1, despite LL dropping support, because im shallow and dislike firestorm only for its UI" sounds pretty eleitist
If it's true that you met hostility even before starting on Firestorm, I'm gonna bet it had less to do with the decision itself and more to do with the elitist, hostile attitude you and your friends presented to other people. It's the attitude you people give off, more than anything else, that earns you like behavior in return. You've got to show respect to earn respect. Lying to people and insulting them, even when they raise legitimate concerns over the stability and functionality of your favorite viewer, isn't the way to do it.
DeleteAgain, we're not talking about changing technology here. As I and others have pointed out repeatedly, the V2-V3 features have been and continue to be back-ported into the V1 GUI. That is adaptation right there for you on full display.
Deny that Jessica and her team are anti-V1 GUI all you want, but their every post reveals their true sensibilities. Jessica and her people, and their supporters including you, have deliberately lied by claiming, falsely, that Linden Lab plans to one day block access to V1, and that is the reason people need to "adapt or leave". But it has been shown over and over again that this claim is a blatant lie based on a twisting of official Linden statements. Jessica and her team have claimed that it was extremely difficult to import mesh into the V1 GUI, but others have shown the false nature of this claim. Now, had Jessica and the others admitted that they personally find it more difficult, and admitted that others with more dedication and programming talent might find the task less herculean, that would be one thing. But that is not what these people and their supporters have claimed. It's been said by Jessica and her suckups that Phoenix with mesh isn't as stable as V2-V3, or words to that effect, even as others point out that Firestorm, V2, and V3 are far buggier and unstable than Phoenix, Singularity, Cool VL, and so on. Why try to deceive people like this?
It's because there's a rather obvious hatred of the V1 graphic user interface at work here, combined with stubborn pride for the "baby" Jessica and her people slapped together from the garbage coding put out by LL. Their hostility and elitist attitudes greatly contributed to the user backlash, but that's something you people don't want to accept.
You need to grow up, pull the sticks out of your rear ends, and be honest with people.
Sorry Archangel - the only one deluded here is yourself.
ReplyDeleteOf COURSE Linden Lab isn't going to give a date for when features and code that V1 clients use will be shut down or otherwise broken!
Some of their programmers don't even know when a bit of code is going to be broken!
Linden Lab recently broke an LL scripting function which has been used for quite some time ... and stated they have no plans to fix it. They will, instead, give users a NEW function to use.
There are still plenty of functions which V1 clients cannot use. There are many features which V1 clients cannot use - some of which have been confirmed to require V2/3 GUI elements and code.
Right now, Linden Lab is keeping their old Profile servers intact and online. Eventually they will do the same as the ISPs and switch them off - favoring the web based profiles over the older ones.
The same with the search system.
The same with the inventory system.
The same with the render code which allows you to shut down HTTP textures.
The more that is backported, the less a V1 client is truly V1. The GUI is PART OF the operations code! This is a fact. In the days prior to Phoenix (and Emerald), to change the skin of the GUI required you to overwrite key parts of the graphics files AND the code modules which came with the client! Indeed, some of the CODE FOR these modules was contained in the skin files themselves!
I remember reskinning V1 to include a few more options .... options which were not present in the standard client ... BEFORE the advent of third party clients!
Please don't lie to those who have actually gone through this before.
I know better - and if you'd been around as long as I have, YOU'D know better as well.
Yes, it IS possible to backport features ... AT A PRICE.
You must have missed that part.
Linden Lab's breaking of the scripting function appears to be an accident, if what I've read is accurate. That's not the same as planning a deliberate shutdown.
DeleteTPV developers are busy importing those features from V2-V# into the V1 GUI. Yes, it's a time-consuming process, but not as much as is being falsely claimed here, and sooner or later those features will make it in. It's simply a matter of time.
As you seem to be aware of, as more features are imported to the V1 GUI, it becomes more and more V2-V3. That is actually what Henri Beauchamp and others have pointed out. It's Jessica Lyon and her fellow liars who keep acting as though the GUI is somehow inextricably tied to the rest of the viewer. It isn't, and TPVs including Phoenix prove that.
Take your own advice and stop lying to people. You're embarrassing yourself.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix notices and notifications! They vanish! They hide... End my suffering!
ReplyDelete@Griz What do you mean with 'they vanish, they hide'? There's a known bug with notifications not appearing in-world. Just mute a random object or stranger (has to be in your block list) and all your recent messages will appear instantly.
ReplyDeleteLook for the 'Phoenix/Firestorm Viewer Support' group in-world. Their support is being very helpful.
Hahaha, I remember I posted this one in another thread on this blog for a reason:
ReplyDelete»Raymond Martinek, Dec 6, 2011 06:17 PM
Inworld, Archangel Mortenwold is the founder of the »Firestorm Haters Club« group (11 members) and a member of the »SL-Viewer 2 Haters Club« group (15 members).«
Yeah, and...?
DeleteOver 202,000 downloads of Firestorm 3.2.2 as of now. Just saying.
ReplyDeleteRaymond, I have 2 of those one on my Desktop the other on my Laptop but I use Firestorm on neither I use Phoenix on both.
ReplyDeleteJust look in world as I said before most people are using Phoenix.
If Phoenix is killed off or becomes unusable then I have my doubts about the future of Second Life.
Just a plea to everyone debate the subject nicely and stop doing individuals down.
@Archangel Mortenwold
ReplyDeleteYou also seem in capable of accepting reality. Technology changes. Acting like everyone is goign to be on V1 forever is foolish. its like fighting for windows XP. Sure many use it, find its UI more familiar, might even find it more stable, but everyone knows it will not be supported forever. Instead of learning about new technology and how to use it, you choose to whine and cling to v1.
Firestorm is getting a more v1 like interface, called vintage, in the next release. With the coming of the FUI in v3, it wil likely become even more v1 like. Increasingly, all the anti v2 claims are becoming less and less relevant. As you put v2 code into v1, it will become more like v2 in terms of stability, and it will likely have bugs that a v2 viewer would not. As for FPS, that is one computer. You cannot take one computer as a reference for all. Personally i get a higher FPS on firestorm than phoenix.I can record that if you want, but then again im not trying to woo people to firestorm, i just prefer it personally.
You use loaded language like obsessive and elitist, but fail to see they would perfectly describe you, and many that cling to v1. Its fine to like v1, but you attack users of v2 viewers as elitists, even when the fact of v1 elitists poor behavior toward v2 users is pointed out. LL wants v1 to go away. This is not some massive conspiracy against v1, its obvious from their actions that they want to move on. Some will go to other V1 based Ui's, but they are simply delaying the inevitable with regards to using v2/v3 which *will* happen sooner or later. I see no huge decline in people using firestorm, and only small declines in phoenix use (most moving to firestorm, or back and forth between firestorm and phoenix). The attachment to v1 is not as strong as you seem to think it is
I'm accepting reality just fine. It's you people dissing those of us who raise legitimate issues with V2-V3, Firestorm, and your attitudes who have problems coming to terms with it.
DeleteI didn't say people would be using TPVs with V1 GUI forever. I said that as long as there are TPV developers willing to maintain viewers with the V1 GUI, those options will continue to be available. Stop trying to ascribe words to me I never wrote.
I actually find Windows 7 Ultimate 64 adequate as my OS (for home use, which is what I'm doing now). Windows XP is still good, but that exists now only on older computers such as those at my workplace. I run SL on my gaming computer, which, decked out as it is for running graphics-intensive programs, still can't compensate for the multitude of crashes, freezes, and other problems inherent to Firesorm and the default LL viewers.
Every program has bugs. Firestorm and Phoenix, among others, are no exceptions. But Phoenix has always been more stable than Firestorm, uses fewer resources on computers, and has a more useable GUI. Since so many vocal people keep saying they prefer Phoenix, and by-sight count of which viewers SLers use indicates a preference for Phoenix or Singularity, as well as Cool VL, that should tell you something the download stats don't: that while you might have a bunch of downloads, that dosen't necessarily translate to more people actually using FS, or the default LL viewers. But you knew that already.
Hey, if you don't like the words I use, don't provoke them. Your attitude is passive-aggressive, elitist, insulting, and condescending. Only changing your behavior to a more respectful tone will get you the same in return. Keeping up the hostility will only earn you more in kind.
Grow up, child.
June, I certainly do not assume that over 200,000 people are using Firestorm 3.2.2. This figure only tells me that a more than considerable number of residents considered it worth trying out. I’m using 3.2.2 myself after having been very much averse to Firestorm for a long time and being an avid Phoenix supporter. (And of course I have downloaded Firestorm 3.2.1 as well as Phoenix 1.6.0, both of which I don’t use, so these two downloads would be dead numbers in the respective statistics.)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, Linden Lab undoubtedly have the ability to flip the switch and block (not only cripple) V1-based viewers any time they see fit. As long as they don’t have a precise idea when that will be so, they certainly won’t give a specific date – simply because they can’t. In other words: any statement from Linden Lab is just what you would expect from any company. Corporate lingo like »…no immediate plans…«, »…for the time being…« etc. Apart from that, business people use to tell their secrets only when they are no secrets anymore anyway. Else they keep their cards close to their chest. That’s perfectly normal.
So we’ll see what happens when it happens...
Hahaha, I remember I posted this one in another thread on this blog for a reason:
ReplyDelete»Raymond Martinek, Dec 6, 2011 06:17 PM
Inworld, Archangel Mortenwold is the founder of the »Firestorm Haters Club« group (11 members) and a member of the »SL-Viewer 2 Haters Club« group (15 members).«
Yeah, and...?
Because it proves your bias and hypocrisy. None of us in world are members of the "Viewer 1 haters club" or the "Phoenix/singularity/coolviewer haters club" and you act like we are part of some conspiracy against v1, when you are part of a v2 and firestorm haters club.
Hypocrisy only applies if I were here promoting FS, or the default Linden viewers. I'm not. Nor have I ever made any claims of objectivity. So once again your lame attack gets shot down in flames.
DeleteNEXT.
If it's true that you met hostility even before starting on Firestorm, I'm gonna bet it had less to do with the decision itself and more to do with the elitist, hostile attitude you and your friends presented to other people.
ReplyDeleteActually I met hostility when i was beta testing firestorm. And it wasn't because "jessica and her team are liars" or "they have emerald people on the team" or something like that. Its because i wasnt using a "proper viewer" (their term). These were not just doing it to me, but users of viewer 2 as well. Keep in mind this was a club (which not surprisingly closed). It was an official policy to not allow viewer 2 users into the club. Then there are the people that harassed me to use v1 viewers for months telling me lie after lie about them to try to get me to switch over. There were those that refused to help or even talk to me because i used a v2 based viewer. I mean the amount of hatred toward users of v2 by *some* users was absolutely ridiculous. The only elitist, hostile attitude i got was from v1 users toward v2 users. It only started to upset me when people started attacking the team for favoring firestorm over phoenix. The hostile elitism is much worse from the v1 side than it is from the v2/v3 side.
It's the attitude you people give off, more than anything else, that earns you like behavior in return. You've got to show respect to earn respect.
You have it backwards. I didn't because a "firestorm obsessive" until people started attacking me in world for using it, ejecting me from clubs and land for using it, harassing me to use v1 viewers, refusing to help or even talk to me for my choice of viewer and I lashed out at them after *months* of this. V1 people started it, not me. Now that there are more firestorm and v2/v3 people on the grid, they are likely running into the same morons I did and there will be a blowback against this because it is unacceptable for people to act this way. You want v2 users to give respect? You have to stop treating people that don't use v1 with respect as well. And stop calling them all "elitists" and "liars" and acting like the hostility is unfounded.
Lying to people and insulting them, even when they raise legitimate concerns over the stability and functionality of your favorite viewer, isn't the way to do it.
I see no insults here, save for you coming in deeming v2 users elitists and hostile and liars. Legitimate concerns are listened to, but they are still working on the viewer to make it better. Phoenix has had the benefit of years of work on it before it reached what it is now. Firestorm has had 10 months. Functionality wise, they are fixing some things, but if you want a straight out v1 Ui with no changes, that is a failure to adapt on your end. Stability is getting better, its not like its all that crash happy for me personally, though some might have issues with it, it is not a majority.
Simply using a particular viewer doesn't cause people to eject others from their lands in SL. Based on your reactions, I'm willing to bet you said or did something to piss people off. If you're gonna lie to me, child, at least have the gonads to come up with a believable one.
DeleteDeny that Jessica and her team are anti-V1 GUI all you want, but their every post reveals their true sensibilities. Jessica and her people, and their supporters including you, have deliberately lied by claiming, falsely, that Linden Lab plans to one day block access to V1, and that is the reason people need to "adapt or leave".
ReplyDeleteif jessica and her team were anti-v1 Ui, they would have blocked phoenix already, just like linden lab is starting to do with 1.23. Most of the team prefers working on firestorm, jessica cannot force them to work on phoenix. LL will not block access to v1, they will shut off v1 services though, which is the same as blocking it for all intents and purposes, as they will not be all that functional without inventory or other things in SL.
It's because there's a rather obvious hatred of the V1 graphic user interface at work here, combined with stubborn pride for the "baby" Jessica and her people slapped together from the garbage coding put out by LL.
In world, you founded a hater group. The firestorm haters group, and are part of the v2 haters group. There is no mass conspiracy against v1, just tired of people denying the obvious: v1 is dying. LL is not going back to it. Work on v2 based code makes more sense. Also phoenix is "slapped together from the garbage coding put out by LL" as well.
Their hostility and elitist attitudes greatly contributed to the user backlash, but that's something you people don't want to accept.
No, as a firestorm user, i can say that I got the hostility and elitism from v1 users. I see almost none from v2 users, but now there is an increasing backlash against the v2 haters because some of their behavior (banning v2 users from land for using v2, harassing to use v1 based viewers, silent treatment) is over the top and blatantly hostile. Now some are getting offended at this "How DARE these v2 users not take our crap!" and trying to play victim. It wont work because anyone thats been in SL since v2 came out has likely seen at least some of this hatred and hostility toward v2 users.
Again with the lies. You know as well as I do the reason Jessica and her team haven't removed the Phoenix downloads from their site, and it's the same reason Linden Lab isn't shutting down TPVs that use the V1 GUI: even they aren't stupid enough to lose half their user base.
DeleteI am not saying that Lyon and her people have to keep maintaining Phoenix. I'd be a real jerk if I advocated for that. What I am saying is that you people need to stop lying to your user base, and stop with the insults. THAT is why you keep getting angry comments. But like with Raymond, you knew that already.
Okay, we've established that I founded a group in SL called Firestorm Haters. We've also established that I belong to a group that dislikes the default Linden viewers in general. And we've established that they each have only a handful of members. And...? This is relevant how...?
Oh, wait, you answered that in an up-thread comment. To reiterate, since I'm not claiming I'm unbiased, and since I'm not taking a contradictory position on this matter, that particular point is irrelevant.
Viewer 1 isn't being updated anymore, nor is LL offering support. That doesn't mean that programmers who apparently have more talent and dedication to maintaining the V1 GUI than Jessica and her team are giving up on maintaining their projects, or that those projects are doomed to go the way of the dinosaurs. Again, you know this for a fact.
Let's use this for an example. Have you ever seen one of those cars that's been made to look like a Lamborghini Countach?
http://www.replicacountach.com/
They're not Lamborghinis. They're just made to look like the make and model. Similarly, what Beauchamp and others have done is take the GUI of V1 and apply it to the Linden code base so that they end up with something that has the functionality and features of V2-V3 but retains the look of the V1 GUI. Again, you know this for a fact, because Beauchamp and others have pointed it out to you. He even demolished Lyon's assertions that viewers using the V1 GUI are some kind of clunky hybrid.
Cut the loaded lanugage and the gross misrepresentation Archangel - it's making you out to look utterly ignorant of real facts and reality.
ReplyDeleteThose screenshots you like to claim as "proof"? IF a v1 client had ALL of the code/features of V2/V3 backported (and let's face it ... to do so means they will NOT be V1 in GUI or base code anymore), you'd see the EXACT SAME decrease in overall frame rates.
That is a solid, verifiable fact.
Your entire tirade comes from a stance which is backed by a hatred of the present client generation - a hatred that can only be traced back to a fear of change. Eventually, ALL clients will HAVE to be primarily V2/3 in code.
That is UNAVOIDABLE.
You seem to think that the choices Linden Lab makes are indicative of a desire to maintain V1 accessibility .. They are NOT.
The fact of the matter is that many Lindens have stated that they WILL shut down key parts of their servers which V1 clients use. It does not MATTER if you backport the newer features from V2/3 into V1 clients.
You will end up with the same sort of Hybrid client as we presently have in Firestorm (and to a lesser degree in Kirsten's client).
The difficulty of backporting these features affects the choices other client makers take when it comes to implementation of code.
At present, no one has figured out how to get MOAP to function in a V1 client without a massive overhaul to the V2/3 GUI system.
This is INTENTIONAL.
I will not bother responding any further to your rants (which are based on your conjecture, interpretations, opinions, twisting of facts and outright lies), nor will I respond to you further based solely on your attack stance.
When YOU grow up a bit ... you'll get a response.
Until then, you're nothing more than a petulant child, throwing a tantrum because your favorite toy has been discontinued.
YOU cut the "loaded language". You're like a little kid who called his sister a doody-head and then went whining to Mommy when she called him a poop-face in reply.
DeleteLie all you want, child. The truth is there in the images.
Glad you're not going to respond anymore. It's getting boring having to respond to little children like you.
Atra Lupis said: »Until then, you're nothing more than a petulant child, throwing a tantrum because your favorite toy has been discontinued.«
ReplyDeleteThat’s ringing a bell here, hehehe:
»Raymond Martinek, Dec 6, 2011 11:05 AM
Friend Archangel, pray forgive me, but your whole act is kind of schizophrenic -- you are desperately denouncing the good people who gave you the Phoenix viewer which you are so frantically in favour of. I take it that the reason for your ruthless ranting and for not silently moving on to greener pastures is the sound and unwelcome knowledge that none of the existing other V1-based TPVs will provide you speedily with the set of features you find in Phoenix. Expect them to be in Firestorm. A good deal already is. You remind me of a five-year-old having a rage-attack at the supermarket because mommy won’t buy the candy wanted. Mommy can be such a cold-hearted bitch.«
Funny thing, i can use Exodus, Niram's Catnip, Rlv, Sion, Dolphin, with a single problem but the refuse to allow hardware to override inbuild AA ad AF, but that happens with any mesh viewer!
ReplyDeleteBut V3 Fui is nevertheless the biggest progress that LL did.
However, when i found that phoenix pre mesh still runs amazingly well, even on OS grid, and that some features they are showing on the new v3 tpv are already on it (left alt in mouslock to use menus, lol, didnt even reliezed that until i tried Rlv latest:))
And Im glad finnaly you have the courage to say that V1 code will still be avaible to use, even if the V1 haters refuse to admit, is the viewers of choice for many still!
Who’s a V1-hater? I, for example, because I personally find Firestorm 3.2.2 the first usable version and actually am using it? Don’t be silly!
DeleteJust come out of a popular place I visit in World but I did a count of the Viewers being used.
ReplyDeletePhoenix 27
V2 7
Firestorm 6
Impudence 2
? 2
Singularity 1
Can't you just smell the pwnage?
Delete:^P
June, personal experience is of course interesting, but statistically quite insignificant. Only Linden Lab can tell how many distinct users a viewer has and how the average usage (duration of sessions) is. And they don’t publish these figures.
ReplyDeleteI myself see a mixed picture at the clubs I attend. A very good deal of Phoenix of course, the occasional singularity, seldom Exodus (but more often of late), maybe Ascent every now and then. But quite a good, but varying percentage of Firestorm and Linden viewers, too.
still can't compensate for the multitude of crashes, freezes, and other problems inherent to Firesorm and the default LL viewers.
ReplyDeleteWhere are the crashes, where are the freezes, what are these mysterious "other problems". You never say. You just use vague terms to bash a viewer you dislike. For me and most i know using firestorm, it doesnt crash or freeze any more than phoenix did.
But Phoenix has always been more stable than Firestorm, uses fewer resources on computers, and has a more useable GUI.
As I have said, phoenix has the benefit of YEARS of people working on it, firestorm has had all of 10 months. Resource use may vary, but i find phoenix uses about the same on my PC. And GUI is a preference, stop stating "it has a more usable UI" like everyone believes it, some do, but not all.
Since so many vocal people keep saying they prefer Phoenix, and by-sight count of which viewers SLers use indicates a preference for Phoenix or Singularity, as well as Cool VL
Being vocal doesnt make anyone right. Most people do not care about the viewer wars, and just usetwhat they feel most comfortable with. At many places I go to, i see a large number using firestorm. I certainly see more people using firestorm than singularity or cool viewer. Phoenix is still the majority for now, but firestorm is usually 2nd or 3rd (LL viewer sometimes is 2nd)
Your attitude is passive-aggressive, elitist, insulting, and condescending. Only changing your behavior to a more respectful tone will get you the same in return. Keeping up the hostility will only earn you more in kind.
Grow up, child.
Your attitude is passive-aggressive, elitist, insulting, and condescending. Not to mention hypocritical. This is called psychological projection. Maybe you should take your own advice instead of coming here, lambasting everyone that uses or likes firestorm as "elitists" and the team as "liars" then have the stones to say we are all insulting and condescending. That last comment especially was condescending. I might very well be older than you are. Everyone was respectful until you came in and started throwing out insults.
Oh come on now, kiddo! Look through every thread posted on this blog and you'll find people describing the specific issues they're having. You don't need me to go into specifics.
DeleteYou ar a hypocrite because you are claiming we are part of some big bad anti-V1 conspiracy bullshit, whn you yourself are part of an anti-V2 and anti-firestorm group. None of us here are part of an anti-v1 group. No one was bashing phoenix at all. No one was saying "move to firestorm". You are the only one here attacking users of other viewers, not v2 or firestorm users.
ReplyDeleteClearly you don't understand the meaning of the word 'hypocrite'. Let me post the definition.
Deletehttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite
1
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2
: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
If you're going to assign labels, assign the right ones. The word you're looking for is 'paranoid'. At any rate, it doesn't require a conspiracy for people to act like a**holes. You're a perfect example of that.
Oh, and my attitude isn't "passive-aggressive". That would be your buddy Raymond. No, I'm just plain old aggressive. And that's only because I have this thing about being insulted and lied to — I find it offensive and don't like it. Then again, most people are like that. Go figure.
ReplyDeleteSimply using a particular viewer doesn't cause people to eject others from their lands in SL. Based on your reactions, I'm willing to bet you said or did something to piss people off. If you're gonna lie to me, child, at least have the gonads to come up with a believable one.
ReplyDeleteSo you are calling me a liar? Some people, like you, are so shallow and so petty they will ban people for using a different viewer. In my case, i was ejected because I was using a v2 based viewer (Firestorm) and told to "get a proper viewer". hen i asked over IM for clarification, they said no one was allowed that used v2 based viewers. I knwo why i was ejected, and it wasnt due to behavior. Secondly stop with the "child" bullshit, its disrespectful and condescending, especially when you do not know my age.
Yes, I am calling you a liar — and a bad one at that.
DeleteOh, and I'll call you a child as long as you insist on acting like one. You don't like it? grow up and act like the adult you're supposed to be.
DeleteWhat I am saying is that you people need to stop lying to your user base, and stop with the insults. THAT is why you keep getting angry comments.
ReplyDeleteNo one is lying, and certainly no one is insulting (except you). There were no angry comments til you came here.
Okay, we've established that I founded a group in SL called Firestorm Haters. We've also established that I belong to a group that dislikes the default Linden viewers in general. And we've established that they each have only a handful of members. And...? This is relevant how...?
because it shows you are projecting your behavior onto us. Accusing us of having some big anti-v1 conspiracy, when you are the one that is in groups hating on firestorm and v2. None of us hate v1, we just prefer firestorm. The hatred v1 users have against v2 users is much stronger than vice versa. When I bring up some of the ways I personally have been mistreated by v2 haters, you call it a lie and act like its impossible to do. The harassment to use v1 viewers no one can deny, same with the refusal to help or in some cases talk to v2 users, so you go after the ejection from parcels or sims. This has happened several times just because of the viewer I was using. it is not terribly common, but it has happened more than once with some users who are virulently anti-v2.(just like prokofy neva ejecting emerald users back in the day)
Serith and others attempting to knock some sense (verbally) into Archangel ...
ReplyDeleteDon't bother. The child apparently has issues that stem from not being able to digest simple facts as well as the reality concerning how software operates differently from one hardware configuration to the next.
For example, he/she would likely find it impossible to digest the fact that in all my time using Firestorm (and I'd been using it off and on throughout the early alpha and beta stages, more as it got closer to final) I have never had anywhere NEAR the number of crashes and issues as I had with Phoenix, Emerald, and other V1 clients.
My frame rate (as another example) has fluctuated wildly between the many machines I have used in the past ... An older machine (my old Dell, running an ATI Radeon X1350 for example) used to run perfectly well with older V1 clients. But, as of V1.23 onward, the frame rate suffered. Early versions of Firestorm (and indeed, V2 itself) saw increased frame rates ... Only the newer versions of V2 based clients have had severe issues on that old bit of hardware.
The fact remains however that the older hardware has issues even running SL as a whole.
I find the notion that the claims he/she has made are somehow Universal Truths (going by his/her attitude) ... laughable.
I'm not even "bashing" V1 here ... I'm stating the facts AS THEY ARE ... and the kid refuses to see them as anything but lies.
Here's a rock solid fact: Users will use whatever client programs runs the best for them on their own hardware configurations. Most (those with NO tech skills whatsoever) will choose to believe that, because it runs like a dream FOR THEM, that it must somehow be the best client FOR EVERYONE.
Nothing could be further from the truth. And as more and more users of the older clients choose to grasp at more and more ridiculous "logic" and "facts" to support their position, they will encounter more and more users who will spit in their virtual faces, tell them off and be on their merry way.
Not a one realizes just how much time has passed between a feature coming out for V2/3 and it finally being backported into a V1 based client. Not a one realizes just how much the GUI and the code base are entwiend. Not a one has ever had to manually install skin files (and code modules to go with some of them) to GET the needed experience in how entwined the GUI and code really ARE.
Not a single one realizes that certain, key selling features of V2/3 HAVE NEVER BEEN BACKPORTED for a REASON. How long has V2 been out - and how many V1 clients actually HAVE MOAP ... AND the graphics system which the newer clients use?
Not a heck of a lot.
They even fail to understand that the number of users they see using a V1 base client at any particular location (and the same goes for some of the V2 users commenting here by the by) is MEANINGLESS.
Mind, many fail to realize that sme of the third party clients out there which breach the ToS can masquerade as ANY CLIENT THEY CHOOSE.
Linden Lab and Linden Lab ALONE has access to the number of users across the ENTIRE GRID who use the various clients.
I have personally gone to MANY establishments ... You know what I see?
I see NOTHING to support the claims of ANYONE concerning what client(s) are more widely used across the grid.
STOP debating numbers as if they bloody matter - THEY DON'T.
To EVERYONE: Use what works for you and STOP trying to foist that choice (or bash people over the head with it/your OPINIONS), disband ANY group you may have created to bash any other client, grow the HELL up and ENJOY Second Life.
Here is at least ONE user telling you: I DON"T GIVE A SHIT WHAT YOU LIKE TO USE, OR WHAT YOU'RE BEING TOLD.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteAtra Lupis said: »They even fail to understand that the number of users they see using a V1 base client at any particular location (and the same goes for some of the V2 users commenting here by the by) is MEANINGLESS.«
DeleteThis whole blog is pretty meaningless in a strict statistical sense. The threads might be highly amusing, but they certainly do not at all reflect the perspectives and persuasions of Second Life users in a relevant fashion. They do not even provide a halfway reliable, realistic picture of what may or may not be wrong with any of the available viewers. One might get an idea of what’s going on. One just might. The Linden Lab admins could tell us. They don’t. Why would they?
YOU cut the "loaded language". You're like a little kid who called his sister a doody-head and then went whining to Mommy when she called him a poop-face in reply.
ReplyDeleteLie all you want, child. The truth is there in the images.
Glad you're not going to respond anymore. It's getting boring having to respond to little children like you.
You are the one that started it. You throw out all sorts of terms like "liar" "elitist" "condescending" and so on, then you go right on and do the same things as you criticize others for doing. Stop calling people child. It is condescending, not to mention disrespectful. You know the ages of no one here, so calling one a child is insulting.
Can't you just smell the pwnage?
ReplyDeleteWho uses terms like pwnage? I have never heard adults use words like that. Anyone seeing your responses would see the hypocrisy inherent in what you are saying and how you are saying it.
Oh come on now, kiddo!
Again with the kiddo/child thing. You do not know my age, so dont use terms like those. And you say we are the ones being disrespectful?
Look through every thread posted on this blog and you'll find people describing the specific issues they're having. You don't need me to go into specifics.
Most are fixed in the inworld support, many are not hard to fix. There are some true, serious bugs in firestorm, and phoenix, but those we refer to the JIRA website.
Oh, and my attitude isn't "passive-aggressive". That would be your buddy Raymond. No, I'm just plain old aggressive. And that's only because I have this thing about being insulted and lied to — I find it offensive and don't like it. Then again, most people are like that. Go figure.
Actually quirt a bit of what you say is passive aggressive. Especially the "child" and "kiddo" insults. No one was insulting you, and you think you were lied to, but never really stated how, besides "phoenix team said LL would block v1 viewers, now they are saying LL wont, just cut off services" and so thats some big lie apparently. Insult? you were the first to throw insults here, and you have in every post since.
Oh - and so that those here who insist on being prats can put their account where their misguided opinions are .... My SL username is Universal Infinity.
ReplyDeleteI do not spend much time in Second Life these days ... but when I AM on, feel free to send me a message ...
The instant you take the same tone in world as you've taken here - you'll be reported. Repeatedly.
Outside Linden Lab's servers, you may feel as if you can attack others with impunity .... Its high time you took a real risk.
Maybe the attitude of Archangel Mortenwold becomes more accessible when you know that he is inworld also a member of the »SL LEFT UNITY« group (which has 384 members).
ReplyDeleteCharta: »The SLLU seeks creative, non violent means to foster revolutionary social dialogue. We oppose capitalism, as well as racism and sexism as a part of capitalism. Our goal is to develop socialism in order to maximise left activity and thought on SL.«
So it’s all an exercise in »revolutionary social dialogue« here alright. Glad I can contribute!
Uh, you DO realize that my group affiliations in SL — beyond those pertaining to this specific argument — are irrelevant, right? So, you couldn't punch a hole in the truth, so you're reduced to attacking my choice of SL groups. Niiiice.
DeleteUh-uh. It is relevant. This your group-membership just quite nicely shows that it is you who is a dyed-in-the-wool elitist and sectarian, and you certainly have proven that you have what it takes to be one: dishonesty.
DeleteI’ll spare myself the effort of repeating what Atra and Serith have said. They’ve already very neatly dissected the imbecilic garbage you are trying to sell here.
You are incredibly stupid. Im sorry,but it has to be said. you are a hypocrite, because you are criticizing others for being elitist, insulting, and condescending then turn around and act that way yourself. You are a troll, that I can be sure of. And if anyone here is being an asshole its you.
ReplyDeleteYes, I am calling you a liar — and a bad one at that.
Why am i a liar? I know for a fact that some people hate v2 and firestorm to the point of ejecting people off their land, because it has happened to me. Also, you can tell what viewer someone is using on phoenix, imprudence, singularity and others.
Oh, and I'll call you a child as long as you insist on acting like one. You don't like it? grow up and act like the adult you're supposed to be.
oh my fucking god. seriously. if anyone here is acting like a child here is you. Everyone was civil, even with you, up til you started throwing insults. Go back under your bridge you useless troll.
/me looks up and rolls eyes
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that disagreements keep on being posted rather than the parties deciding to take it into personal emails or the like.
You see this sort of thing happening in other comments fields in all sorts of areas. The common thread I feel is the "perpetrators" only continue within a forum because they think they would be seen as lesser in the eyes of other readers if they stop. The fact that the "discussion" starts to go completely outside the gist of the original post is not even an issue.
As a mere reader and user, I would like to presume to speak on others behalf that..guys, after a while. we really don't care..so..you may as well stop.
Connie, you are of course very right here. For my part, I made the mistake of violating two golden internet-rules:
Delete1. »Don’t feed the trolls!«
2. »Don’t argue with conspiracy theorists!«
Each type will already wear you down in the long run, let alone in combination...
*Shrugs*
Raymond lets be honest, did you tried any of the new viewers yet?
ReplyDeletedid by any chance you dare to say that Niran's, Rlv, Catnip, Sion, Exodus, Dolphin are worst then Firestorm?
Did that matters?
What matters is that both Firestorm and phoenix get at least the latest available updates from Ll concerning bugs, and on my personal case, that Phoenix got also the latest Rlv updates and also Henry's ones!
i agree those viewers are horrible!! i will put up with phoenix/firestorm's problems and updates before i will use the other new viewers
Deleteok, so i LOVE LOVE LOVE firestorm but it pisses me off that my lag is SOOOOOOOOOO much worse on FS than on Ph. ALSO i dont like phoenix anymore after being used to FS ONLY BECAUSE (underline that please) i can not ADD layers like i can on FS (i.e. 4 or 5 tattoo layers at one time vs. only one tattoo layer at a time on phoenix!) another problem i have had with FS is that it blacks in and out when my lag becomes too high and now i have attempted FS on my laptop nad on my friends desktop.......it's the same thing on both the LAG is horrendous, also asking my friends about their FS exp they tell me they had some of the same issues! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix firestorm to be more stable and please with haste i miss my FS viewer....it would be that or make phoenix like FS where we can add layers and have some more of the firestorm capabilities!!
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion...if you hate the viewer and the team...why are you hanging out in their messages threads? No one wants to hear your messages of hate and ignorance.
ReplyDeleteI think the only CHILD in this thread was Archangel.
If you found yourself a viewer that works better for you...and updates quicker than go to their message threads (if they have one) and spread your praise & love for it there.
The way you go on and on and spread hate...I'd swear you were a relative of the Phelps family from Topeka, Kansas.
I am not friends with anyone of the developers of this viewer, but I for one, 100% fully support the efforts of Jessica and the Firestorm team. I only use Firestorm and no other viewer now...even with the known issues. I am a patient enough person to know that they develop these fixes on their own unpaid time. My SL experience hasn't been drastically hindered by the fact that I can't wear a few mesh items I prematurely bought. They can sit in my inventory until kinks are worked out.
Maybe if they didn't have to deal with so much flack from the haters...updates would be made to BOTH Phoenix and FS viewers in a more timely manner.
So buh bye haters...if you really want your point taken...I would suggest YOU grow up and submit your suggestion like a decent human being. I'm sure Jessica presented the info as best she could with what she was given from LL.
I know I'm tired of hearing the same thing over and over from her because people can't get it through their thick skulls. It's obvious FS is the direction being taken...I for one would like to be more informed about those changes than the flack her team has been getting.
So positive thoughts going out to the FS team. Looking forward to the upcoming updates and changes. Cheers!
to much blah
DeleteDont wish to have told you so...but i told you so awhile back that Linden told us they were not killing v1...To the one that flamed me :P
ReplyDeleteregarding this
"Phoenix...
Remember we promised we would keep Phoenix going as long as it's feasible and we will stand by that promise. And it's sounding lately like LL is starting to take a less aggressive stance towards V1 than what we were initially told nearly a year ago. By the sounds of it, LL has no immediate plans now to break v1 by turning off server side functionality. This of course is nothing more than the impression we are getting, there has been no official statement either way. Which means we want to get another Phoenix release out some time soon as well. When? good question.. no time frame yet but hopefully within the next few months. We're hoping we can address some of the performance, stability and mesh related issues our Phoenix users are experiencing on the 1600 release."
To the person who more or less flamed me...Dont assume the rest of us dont know Lindens or talk with them...
I do so love to correct people Stacie ...
ReplyDeleteThe Lindens you may talk to and the Lindens the Phoenix/Firestorm team may talk to and the Lindens that run the show .. ?
Not a one of them knows jack squat concerning what the others are doing/saying.
Your entire "I told you so" attitude? It's utterly meaningless.
When you've been a user of Second Life as long as I have, you learn these things.
Atra, your reply is pretty meaningless itself because what you are dishing out here is not hard facts but solely surmise and conjecture masked as truisms. What you refer to as your vast personal experience in Second Life will buy you the admiration of everybody around, no doubt, but it is irrelevant from a statistical point of view.
ReplyDeleteRay, what I have stated regarding the Lindens is pretty much a hard fact.
ReplyDeleteLook at what they have done vs. what the users want, then look at the reactions from various Lindens both present and past.
Finally, look at the way their policies have changed over the years and examine the way they are implemented.
We'll use the Gambling Policy as an example: At the start (and even now) they had (and have) very broad definitions of what constitutes "Gambling". Each Linden acting on a report for this has had a different reaction, often times with the exact same report (see, sploders and their newer variations as well as Zyngo and other games which escaped this policy for a very long time).
It is hardly "meaningless" to point out that no two Lindens will say the exact same thing or even agree on a point - unless they have a set script to read from.
Atra, you are still referring to an impression you may have attained over the years. And you are making a decisive constraint yourself: »…unless they have a set script to read from.« In other words: You are still pretty vague. Nothing to be learned here.
ReplyDeleteNope - thanks for playing Ray. Welcome to Corporate America - and in particular, the Tech Sector.
ReplyDeleteIt's not an impression - it's a fact.
Before opining concerning this, you might want to go digging through the years of backlogs ... Oh wait, you can't. Most of them were expunged!
Sorry, experience in this field is what I am speaking from: You can doubt it all you want to. It won't change anything.
I'm not here to argue with you either.
My statements have nothing to do with "statistics" and everything to do with what can be directly observed.
It might pay to try looking at things from a perspective other than your own for a change.
I'm Still crashing when looking at Profiles and I still can't hear music. Phoenix doesn't let me.
ReplyDelete*Lol*
ReplyDeleteI have 32 years of professional experience in a variety of businesses including computers and other complex technical equipment and services and get paid for changing perspective all the time and seeing the world through the eyes of my clients. Generalization is always a risky approach and often produces imprecise results.
I have absolutly no use for that piece of garbage V2-3 but am perfectly happy to let people chose what they like, since you keep dissing and want to abandon Phoneix the still superior viewer I have moved on to another TPV where the owner isn't so arrogant.
ReplyDelete@Glory
ReplyDeleteI have absolutly no use for that piece of garbage V2-3 but am perfectly happy to let people chose what they like, since you keep dissing and want to abandon Phoneix the still superior viewer I have moved on to another TPV where the owner isn't so arrogant.
I see no arrogance from the owner of the team. I do see annoyance because of people like you that refuse to even try a v3 based viewer and cling to v1 because you are more familiar with it, then heap scorn and abuse on the team because they aren't focused on phoenix (like they have been saying for months now). I a sure the phoenix team is shaking in their prim boots at you moving to another viewer, i mean you pay them *so* much money to use phoenix or give so much of your time to develop it whatever will they do without you?
As long as people can choose a viewer of their liking, well and good. Any »war of the viewers« is somewhat silly. It’s all a matter of personal tastes and individual system configurations to run the viewers on. Everything else doesn’t greatly matter.
ReplyDeleteI say stop working on Phoenix and concentrate on Firestorm. I suggested the Imprudence/ Kokua team should stop working on Imprudence and just concentrate on Kokua.
ReplyDeleteIt'll halve your workload and you can spend more time making sure Firestorm works properly.
I still think LL should have dropped the servers when they said they would.
Not having anything to do but still now answer so;
ReplyDeleteMy only problem with Second Life now!
I can see any mesh i want, be on Sl or Open sim!
I can see it using any mesh viewer, be singularity, Cool viewer, Exodus, Rlv, Niran's, Catnip, the mesh viewers i have on my computer!
What i cant manage to have is:
Seeing ALL in world, as detailed as on a non mesh viewer!
Inbuild viewers max AA= 16
Inbuild viewers max Anisotropic filtering=4
Using Nvidia control (there is at least 1 blog explaining how any can make Sl much smoother, if you use the Vga settings instead of inbuild viewer one!)
I can override (disabling the inbuild AA and AF) and make the viewer shows ALL (not only meshes, but all you see in your screen) at AA=32 AF=32 or 16HQ
That means one thing, if you have a high end LCD, you will notice the diff in detail and all will look less cripsy and much more detailed!
Now when you try to do that with any mesh viewer, what will happen is that AA and AF are disabled, NO AA NO AF!
The only way you can have, is to use the inbuild AA and AF, 16 and 4, when on a non mesh you can use 32/32 or 16hq!
So its not about not seeing meshes, is about seeing Second Life as an amazing graphic experience (Just look at my flirk page to see how i see things, as i don't use photoshop when i take my photos!!!)
Is about being able to sustain 4h straight in front of my computer enjoying, or have to stop after 30min cause my eyes are being stressed to much i have to log out!
Is knowing I can use the best settings with a non mesh viewer and have to stick with settings that no other game or tool uses for more then 10 years!
And im sorry if you never tried to see the diff of using 32AA and 32AF or 16HqAF or if you cant notice any!
But i can and i notice!
So if any can give a reasonable explanation ill be very appreciated!
ZZ, you won’t get an answer to this on this here blog. It’s certainly a JIRA issue, so you best file one there.
ReplyDeleteHi, Are there any plans to incorporate the scripting pre-processor that phoenix has into firestorm? Thi ability to have #include files and #defines really tidies up the code.
ReplyDeleteThis would be so great ... then I could switch to firestorm :-)
Hi, Are there any plans to incorporate the lsl pre-processor that is present in Phoenix, into Firestorm?
ReplyDeleteThe ability to have #include and #define so improves the clarity of the code.
It is the only reason I haven't swapped to Firestorm.
I'm worried Second Life is going to leave me (and how many others?) behind. I've got a MacBook pro that's about 5 years old and all the new V3 type viewers just overheat the little thing and run slow as molasses!
ReplyDeleteSad
ok, I do not like firestorm, do not like the way it operates, it is just like viewer 2. I very much prefer phoenix and hope it will keep going. phoenix is much easier to operate. why firestorm just update phoenix and keep it. :)
ReplyDeleteSo i'm a fan of phoenix....yes i am one of those people who refuse to let go....but my problem isnt the fact i cant run firestorm cause i can, it is however slightly choppy which is irritating...thats the only reason i havent switched from phoenix completely....one thing about phoenix however that has me mind boggled is that fact multiple layers STILL havent been added...if i can run a client like cool viewer for example and run mesh multiple layers etc then this really shouldnt be a problem for phoenix either.. the only thing i dont like about cool viewer is the lack of functionality and the feeling of stepping back into the stone age, everything else is seamless though, so if henri can do it i believe so can phoenix developers....i get there trying to sate people via firestorm but if its gonna make people lag its gonna make people lag....just add the multiple layers already focus on that then everything else will fall into place....also alot of issues with alpha textures on phoenix...need to be addressed also
ReplyDelete